06/02/1998-CC-Minutes-Regular1
Minutes: City Council Meeting
June 2, 1998
Present: Mayor John Coker, Councilman Jerry Jenkins, Councilman Mike James,
Councilman Glenn Ervin, Councilwoman Alice Madden and Councilman
Tommy Kincaid
Others
Present: City Administrator Jack Smith, City Secretary Rosalie Chavez, Chief of
Police Benny Erwin, Street Supt., Chuck Tucker, Electric Supt., Jeff Morris,
Water & Wastewater Supt., Eddie Branham, City Mechanic Tommy Belcher,
City Attorney Louis Nichols, Annie Tyrone TNRCC, Burgess H Stengl,
Geologist TNRCC, Bill Dalhin TNRCC, Lisa Hardy - Sanger Courier, Nel
Armstrong, J.F. Kelly, Mickey Flood, Gene Orcutt, Tom Brown, Thomas
Muir, Wayne Moseley, Ken Kennedy, Jack Walters, Chris Hayes, Joey
Copeland, Bob Johnson, Joanne Roberts, Andrew Foote, Stephen Frank,
Katrina Dufreche, Kathy Trottier, Margye Henry, Doreen Curtsinger,
Donna Davis, Katie Sons, Brooke Sons, Conrado Martinez, Debra Rucker,
Susie Krominga, Toni L. Walker, Barbara Hilliard, Steven Williams, David
Miller, John Bucklew, Deborah Bucklew, Janice Newton, Marvin Perkins,
Janet E. LaCroix, Daniel C. LaCroix, Mary Belle Sims, Paul Edelman, David
K. McBride, Wesley M. McBride, James L. McBride, Carol McBride,
Debbie Alexander, Lynda Johns, Barbara Buchanan, Buck Buchanan, Roger
Dunham, Joseph Wilson, Lori Wilson, Melissa Chambers, L.L. Browning,
W.E. Ross, Clarence Ross, Doris Garner, Robert Garner, Bill Fuller, Joyce
Fuller, Almarie Jones, Earl Jones, Terry Jones, Pat Attaway, Karen Perry,
Monty Perry, James Attaway, Karen Marti, Marla Escobedo, Glenn Lanier,
Marianne Edelman, Josh Edelman, Felicia Edleman, Woodrow Barton, Janie
Stanley, Shelly Ruland, Sandra Price, Stephanie Wills, Olan Underwood,
Kenny Roland, Frank LuForte, Danny Harris, Marilyn Harris, Mike Melott,
William Dickson, Teresa Melott, Janie Kennedy, Merrie Lou Abney,
Jacqueline Rutherford, Sherry Lewis, Mary Ann Alambar, Jona Escobedo,
Curtis Lackey, Wanda Ervin, Nathan Ervin, Linda Morgan, Pat Kerby,
Frank Kerby, Allen Sweeney, Dan Rodgers, Al Judkiewics, Richard
Derryberry, Frank Rodgers, Mary Jane Lane, Ed Lane, Sandra Macmillan,
Steve Hollingsworth, Elizabeth Higgs, Joe Higgs, Linda Hewlett, Nancy
Davidson, Bill Rice, Betty Rice, Twila Groves, Randy Groves, Terry
Davidson, Sherron Thompson, Lori Lenington, Jana Matney, Ken Adcock,
Margaret O'Rear, Jack Armstrong, Dorwin & Patsy Seargent, Barbara
Brady, Delores Coker, Carol Tucker, Ken Wilson, Mike Lawler, Carol
Foreman, Bob Foreman, Ann Barton, Sandra Bowles, D.L. Bowles, Glenda
Stepheson, Richard Muir, C.G. McNeill, Jennifer Sicking, Peggy Pate, W.K.
Pate, Ben & Terri Burgoon, Charles C. Bitttle,Sr, Betty A. Bittle, Linda
Woody, Elid Villanueva, Marcelino Villanueva, Vernon Langley, Janet
McDaniel, Dilana Moseley, Nancy Smith, Millard T. Smith, Mary Margaret
Tocquigny, Ginger Henry, Jerry Prater, Lee Bates, Sharon Bates, Joey
Higgs, Ed Farmer Dawn Farmer, John & Liz Springer, Jackie Prater, Roy
Taylor, Dixie Taylor, Jane Valentine, Velda Mahan, Deborah Williams, Don
Gillum, Donna Dever, Rick Fuller, Bill Deer, Terri Twellman, Sarah
Langley, Pat Hawkins, April Siver, Michael Christy, Billy Gentle, Elisha
Broadie, Donald Broadie, Richard Jameson, Jane Edwards, Eugene Edwards,
Mike Keller, Beverly Drake, Chuck Drake, Paula Dunham, Judy Dryden,
Brad Martin, George Spicer, Joy Spicer, Ricie Felkner, Karen Sons, Miriam
Calderon, Rona Roberts, Carl Rank, Andrew Cox, Ann Weatherall, Aletha
McCowen, James Holley, Cecelia McCuistion, Marty McCuistion, Danny
McCuistion, jeanene McCuistion, Sharon Lee Milles, Heather Roberts,
Twylia Brown, Duane Brown, Juanita May, Michael May, Ema Irlas, Jose
G. Irias, Connie Shivers, James Shivers, Rex Kirby, Diane Morrow, Jetta
Cook, Vicki Somers, Judy Webster, Carol Bowden, Rosene Sebastian, Robert
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McCowen, James Gage, Linette Cook, John Kirby, Connie Ray, Cherry
Beard, Ronny Beard, Rae McWhorter, Joe McWhorter, Cliff McCurdy, Lisa
Cody, Scott Cody, Kim Jones, Linda Stephens, Shirley Haisler, Ray
Stephens, Betty Barrett, Gordan Gregory, Keith Coulter, Patty Falls, Joe
Falls, Kim Hall, Jo Wilson, Jay Beavers, Ramsey Foote, Dennis Cannon
1. Mayor Coker Called the Meeting to Order. Earl Ross led the Invocation followed
by Councilman Kincaid leading the Pledge of Allegiance.
CONSENT AGENDA
2. a) Approve Minutes
b) Disbursements
Motion was made by Councilman Jenkins to Approve Consent Agenda. Seconded
by Councilman James.
Motion Carried unanimously.
(3)8. Consider and Possible Action to Award Bid on Sale of City Property.
Mayor Coker indicated to Council that one bid was received on the sale of this lot
that was donated to the City by the church on an "as is" basis. The City is selling
the lot on an "as is" basis, and received one bid from Gene Hughes in the amount
of $59000.00.
Motion was made by Councilman Kincaid to Accept Bid from Gene Hughes.
Seconded by Councilwoman Madden.
Motion Carved unanimously.
Consider and Possible Action to Approve Utility and Street Construction on Laney
Drive.
Mayor Coker indicated that Council had a bid perForemance bond submitted to the
City on this street. Council has been asked to approve this street. The engineering
has been complete, and the utilities have been laid, and this is the final approval on
this.
Motion was made by Councilman Jenkins to Approve Utility and Street Construction
on Laney Drive with the recommendations of the City Engineer. Seconded by
Councilman James.
Motion Carried unanimously.
Consider and Possible Action to Rescind Action Taken at March 6, 1998 Special
Called Council Meeting Approving Landfill and Waste Disposal Agreement with
IESI.
Motion was made by Councilman Jenkins to Rescind Action on advice of City
Attorney Taken at March 6, 1998 Special Called Meeting Approving Landfill and
Waste Disposal Agreement with IESI. Seconded by Tommy Kincaid.
Councilman Kincaid stated that at this time we will have a discussion to answer any
questions, and we will try to sort this out. By rescinding this contract does not keep
you from having a landfill. If we rescind this contract and do not sit down and try
to negotiate to work this out through a committee and IESI, then they can come in
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here and build this any way they see fit if they can get the permit. I feel they can,
and I personally do not want to call their bluff, you may. This is why I want you
to use your mind to study the situation. When we get through with this discussion
have some thoughts on it. If we have a landfill out there that we have no control
over all those fears that you have been talking about could possibly be there. If we
have a landfill out there that we have control over, we can control what goes in it
through the permitting stage. This is what no one has wanted to listen to, that we
have been trying to say. It is in the permitting stage that determines whether they
can put things in there or not. Now, there have been some discussions about the
golf course, and some of you say it can not be done. Believe me, it can be done.
We have people calling now wanting to build a golf course, run it, and operate it,
and pay us royalties on it.
Motion Carried unanimously.
(6)4. Consider and Possible Action to Appoint Committee to Evaluate the Merits of the
Landfill/Golf Course Project with IESI.
Motion was made by Councihan Kincaid to Appoint Committee to Evaluate the
Merits of the Landfill/Golf Course Project with IESI. Seconded by Councilman
James.
Motion Carried 3 - 2.
5. Consider and Possible Action Regarding Request from Joey Copeland.
(This item was addressed in item 7)
6. Consider and Possible Action Regarding Request from Kenneth W. Cornell.
(This item was addressed in item 7)
(7)10. Consider and Possible Action to Apply for Park Grant.
Julia Beavers, Sanger Parks Board, Rt 1, Box 595 indicated that she had addressed
the City Council before about work on the park. This is the park out by the
railroad tracks. At this time we have a completed the fields, and there are a lot
more than just the baseball fields. This grant will be to renovate our existing park.
This is a 16 acre facility and we need to call for resolution to allow us to apply for
this grant.
Mayor Coker indicated that he would like to know if she was asking the City
Council to agree on applying for the grant.
Julia Beavers indicated the grant was going to be half of the $650,000.00 and they
are accepting in kind donations, which they aheady have, but some of the revenues
will have to come from the City.
Mayor Coker was concerned that $325,000.00 was Sanger's part, and asked if this
was cash money that Julia was asking for.
Julia Beavers indicated that part of it can be cash, but they had some businesses
who have donated other items such as scoreboards, and Curtis Gilley is donating the
plumbing work.
Mayor Coker asked Julia if she could tell him how much money she is talking
about?
C!
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98 PAGE 4
Julia stated approximately $11000.00 each year, and we have about $40,000.00
together right now.
Mayor Coker stated you are saying you all will help the City with their part, and
then the state will match this?
Julia stated that everything will be matched. She indicated that she had broken it
down in to a three year period, and in a three year time, so that it would not be a
financial burden on the City and on the other groups. They felt like $110,000.00
each year with the new sales tax coming in plus the donations from the community
the City could handle this.
Mayor Coker reiterated to the folks in the audience that this was broken down over
a three year period. The first year would include the ballfields, restrooms,
concession, any trails, nature, wildlife and beautification. The second year would
include the playground, picnic facilities, trails and beautification. The third year
would include sports court, parking, signs and beautification. The grant is for a
total of $650,000.009 with Sanger's part being $325,000.00 over a three year period
asking for $110,000.00 per year. Mayor Coker stated the Parks Board has worked
real hard on this and they will help the City of Sanger come up with this money.
Julia Beavers stated they would need some of the money to come from the sales tax.
Councilman Jenkins asked Julia where they came up with the figures on the back
page which shows the breakdown of the funds they are requesting because his
concerns were the amount of the sales tax revenue that Julia is talking about. As
Council they can not have any part of committing how much money can be used
from the sales tax funds because the corporations are not even set up. Secondly we
need to probably get some professional help when you are working on a $650,000.00
investment to get an exact idea on these types of funds.
Julia Beavers indicated the grant says they can get an estimated cost. She indicated
that as long as they no not go over fmanciMy on the estimated cost projections they
will not be out of pocket with the money.
Councilman Jenkins stated I don't doubt your costs but I wonder if we don't need
a more increment breakdown on these as far as where are these costs going to come
from.
Mayor Coker inquired if there was a time frame for submitting this grant?
Julia indicated that July 31st was the deadline.
Councilman Jenkins indicated that he thought the Council needed more time to look
over this to get a better idea.
Mayor Coker asked rest of the Council what they thought.
Councilwoman Madden agreed they needed more time and indicated it was the first
time she had seen the breakdown.
Mayor Coker indicated that since they had until July 31st, they can have this on the
next agenda for June 15.
Councilman Jenkins indicated he would like the Parks Board to give them an idea
where they came up with their numbers at the next Council meeting.
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PAGES
Mayor Coker indicated that they did appreciate the work the Parks Board has put
into this project, and on the funds for the sales tax the board that will be appointed
will decide how these funds will be spent. The City Council can not decide that.
The Council can decide to support you on the $110,000.009 but we can not say that
we are going to take the $110,000.00 from the sales tax.
Julia stated that the sales tax was supposed to be for the parks.
Mayor Coker responded that the sales tax is
for
all of the items listed and
the parks
was one of them, and the appointed board
will
decide how the money is
spent.
Tony Tipton spoke up stated the resolution was adopted over a month ago.
Mayor Coker indicated that City Council has not appointed a board yet, and will
not begin collecting these taxes until October 1. The board has not been appointed
yet and they haven't really thought much about the sales tax since City Council has
been involved in some other things. But that will be one of our next things to do.
Item postponed for next City Council Agenda
(8)7. Citizens Input on Landfill.
Mayor Coker indicated that at this time he would like to introduce some special
guests; The City Attorney, H. Louis Nichols from Dallas, being the three folks from
the TNRCC -- Mrs. Annie Tyrone, Office of Public Assistance, Mr. Burgess H.
Stengl, Geologist, and Mr. Bill Dahlin, Public Engineering.
Mayor Coker indicated that at this time they were going to ask Mrs. Tyrone to step
up to conduct the meeting. The Mayor asked the citizens when they came up to
speak to please step up to the podium, give their name and address and limit their
time at the podium. Please be courteous to the ones behind you. You can address
your question to the Council, anyone from IESI, our City Attorney, or the TNRCC.
At this time the meeting was turned over to Mrs. Tyrone.
Mrs. Tyrone said good evening and thank you for coming, I'm glad to see so many
interested faces here tonight. I came for no other reason than to hear your
complaints, comments, or whatever it is you have to say. There are three
commissioners in Austin who say we need to know how you feel about this particular
issue, whether its is good, bad, or ugly, whatever it is. But we need to talk one at
a time so I can hear what you have to say. We know we will be here for awhile so
lets be patient with each other. I'm going to be patient with you, I'm here to spend
the night! Let's be friendly with each other because you are friends, family and
neighbors.
Mayor Coker advised Mrs. Tyrone that the first speaker was Joey Copeland, and
that he would like Mrs. Nel Armstrong to speak next, and then Fletcher Kelly,
Mickey Flood, and Gene Orcutt.
Mrs. Tyrone asked that the citizens only ask the same question once. She stated
that no matter how many times I hear the question it will not change the way I feel
about it. This way we will get as many comments as possible.
Joey Copeland indicated that there was a rumor as to the validity of what he stated
in the meeting at City Hall a couple of weeks ago. He told both the members of
Council and IESI that as areal estate agent he was bound by rules and regulations
to disclose any information, that he knew of a proposed landfill in this area. With
the help of Mr. Tipton he passed out a document to Council and according to the
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Texas Real Estate License Act Citation 5.35.2 under the rules of the commission a
real estate agent owes the highest fiduciary obligation to his principal and is
obligated to convey to his principal all information of which the agent has knowledge
and which may affect the principal's decision. On the second page he even went on
to highlight articles 1 and 2 under the interpretations of ethics. Article 1 states that
an agent must protect and promote his clients interest but be honest and fair with
all parties. Article 2 says to avoid exaggeration, misrepresentation, and concealment
of the pertinent fact. If a landfill of this size is not a pertinent fact he didn't know
what is. He had a question, its a vague question, for the members of Council and
IESI, he said "if you guys can help me to understand how I can convince somebody
that they need to live by a landfill of this size, please help me out, because I have
yet to truthfully find one person who I can convince needs to live near this dump.
Every person that I have spoken with in the past several weeks, they get in their car
and that is exactly what I said at the last meeting. They get in their car and head
the opposite direction as fast as they can."
Mrs. Tyrone indicated if the Council had any comments. Mayor Coker responded
that rather than asked the Council, he would ask if IESI does.
Mrs. Tyrone expressed that she would.
Micky Flood indicated that they are putting in lots around the golf course. He
indicated they had three different groups who had already called and asked him if
they could handle the golf course lots. We do not believe there will be any problem
whatsoever with the sale of these lots.
Jcey would like to make one response to his answer. He indicated he was an agent
and has been working in this area for ten years and he has yet to convince one
person that they need to live in this area. He then addressed a question to TNRCC.
Information had come to him and he will read exactly what was written. The
document to close the existing landfill was mailed from the City of Sanger to the
TNRCC on March 25, 1991. It is my understanding that the petition had to be
tabled for a period of 5 years giving us a closing date of March 24, 1996. Is the
existing landfill currently closed and if not why has this landfill stayed open for two
years past its legal closing date.
Mr. Stengl, Permit Division, answered the question and indicated he knew the
document had been sent in to officially close the landfill. Basically the City stopped
receiving waste in 1991. It then went under a 5 year post closure care period. The
landfill owner has to request to get off the post care closure. He indicated it had
been sent in by the City, but he had not seen the document, his team leader says it
has been sent in, it does have some information on it. Why it took an extra two
years after post closure care he did not know, maybe the City Council knows. He
indicated that sometimes things slip through the City Council.
Joey asked if the Council would like to respond.
Mrs. Tyrone responded by saying the Mayor says no. Then the Mayor stated he
had no idea and was not Mayor at that time and had not dealt with it but believed
---- another gentleman there would answer the question.
Bill Dahlin, from TNRCC indicated he had received calls and hoped he had been
helpful in answering their questions, and indicated be will not be available until the
15th of this month. He indicated he had in his hand a field file that is kept in
Austin, because it contains so many of the activities of the landfill. He showed his
partner from the Austin office a letter dated 4/19/91 indicating they received an
affidavit to the public that was affixed to the deed records showing the site used for
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
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a landfill. The letter dated 04/19/91 regulations state it must go through a 5 year
post closure under field instructions from Arlington I did an inspection last year and
have submitted documents requesting closure. A letter was sent to the Austin office
and at this time has been put aside due to the request from IESI and the City of
Sanger. He indicated that these records were public information and copies are kept
in Austin.
Joey stated he would like to respond to that real quickly. Mrs. Tyrone said go
ahead. Joey stated if you do have documents dated 04/91 that still gives us a closing
date of 04/96. Who was responsible for allowing this to stay open two years longer?
Tf the City Council has rescinded a contract with IESI don't they also rescind their
contract to keep the existing landfill open?
Bill indicated that since 1993 they had 2,000 landfills now down to 200. He
addressed the citizens and indicated that they were looking at an individual who had
lots of knowledge about north Texas as far as landfills are concerned. He indicated
that on this particular landfill he would have to review these documents. He
indicated that he was late in the closure process.
Joey Copeland then indicated that he had one last question and one last quick
response to the City Council and TESL My last question, "again, I ask who is
responsible for this thing being two years old and not being serviced in the way that
it was supposed to be, and I still heard I don't know and maybe it is this
gentleman's fault.
Mrs. Tyrone addressed Mr. Copeland saying if he would leave her his address and
telephone number she would investigate his question and get back with him.
Joey made one last statement to the City Council and IESI, " I have spoken to 100's
of residents and they want no part of this landfill. We don't want a committee or
the feasibility of a landfill. I'm here to tell you right now that it's been a detriment
to the City of Sanger right now. We asked for a response from the citizens whether
this was good, bad or ugly, and I think this is extremely ugly."
Nel Armstrong - "My name is Nel Armstrong I live at 216 Diane in Sanger I was
born here and lived here all my life. I was Mayor for 12 years from 1984 until May
1996. I didn't come to ask questions or to comment on the landfill. I came for one
purpose. I was not asked to speak tonight by one individual or any group. No one
knew I was going to come and speak, but myself and my husband until just before
7:00 o'clock tonight. Maybe this is not the time, but this is the only citizens input
you have so this is fine. For the last few weeks I have heard the members of the
City Council criticized, ridiculed, discussed and cussed, and I know what that feels
like for I have been there. At the same time I have never heard anyone say that
they remember or realize that you were elected by the citizens of this town evidently
because they thought you could do a good job. I know all of you, some of you I've
served with, some of you I talked into to running for Council, some of you I have
known most of my adult life and that's a long time. I've talked to you furthermore,
and I think I know why you ran for the Council. I know it wasn't for the money,
it wasn't for the prestige and certainly not for the honor. You ran for this
rewarding but most of the time thankless job because you care about this town. I've
seen people here tonight that during my 12 years I begged and I asked to please run
for the City Council, and to please get involved. There were issues and problems
that even citizens may not have been aware of because you solved that issue or
problem before it became a major unsolvable problem. So tonight, I'm here to
represent myself and my husband. I want to say thank you for the time and service
you have given our citizens. I know there are times you have to make tough
decisions and that a lot of people don't like those decisions I have been there too,
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
PAGE 8
but I also know that you do it with the best intentions in your heart, so thank you
for serving."
Mr. Fletcher Kelly, President of JFK Group and Mr. Flood began their
presentation.
Mr. Flood, President of IESI, introduced Gene Orcutt Landfill Development Manger
- responsible for operations, Tom Brown, State Manger of Texas. Mr. Flood
indicated the first thing he would like to do is take the opportunity to define the
reason why they were there. He then went on to explain the revenues the landfill
would bring to Sanger.
Mr. Flood addressed the issue of how high will the landfill get and indicated that it
would not be any higher than the highest natural elevation on the existing property.
The landfill will conform to the rolling natural terrain, and that's been their
representation to the City.
He then addressed, "how will I be able to access the landfill?" Exit I-35 along the
access road to Utility Road.
He then explained by the year 2,000 they estimated 50 - 60 trucks per day on a 12
hour operating day.
(Mrs. Tyrone had to interrupt Mr. Flood because the crowd was getting too noisy.
She again urged them to be respectful even if they did not want to hear what Mr.
Flood had to say.)
Mr. Flood indicated there had been many questions regarding the comparison of
Lewisville's landfill to Sanger and they listed some of the more pertinent
comparisons. The ownership of Lewisville is private and the contract they have with
the City and IESI is public/private partnership. The Cubic yards of trash per day
collected in Lewisville is about 13,000 per day. Banger's opening volume for the
first two years is about 1,000 per day, the peak period when they open and it will
be about 2,100 per day in the year 2007. Size and acreage is about 400 acres in
Lewisville, and the size at Sanger is 282 acres. The big difference is height. Our
height is limited to the terrain of that site. The hours of operation at Lewisville are
24 hours, and in Sanger it is 12.
Mr. Flood indicated he did not play golf, and addressed, "why should the city build
a golf course?" A golf course was #6 on Banger's top ten needs list in a 1988
survey. It will increase property values, it will entrap development, it will boost
the local economy, it will be an income producing asset, and it will provide jobs.
Another question he answered was,"What happens to the landfill if the golf course
isn't finished." The landfill, after expansion is granted, will give the City 2 1/2
years to build a golf course. IESI then takes the property over if in fact it is not
built and will work with the City to complete the "build out" on that property. IESI
has committed themselves to the City Council and the land for the golf course.
Under the contract, it will never be used for a landfill.
Mr. Flood then addressed, "Why would IESI contribute land to the City.?" The
City of Sanger requested the land as a condition of partnership. IESI desired a
greenbelt around the landfill, a golf course, ball field, soccer field, something that
would give a natural boundary to the existing site. The closest home from the
footprint of the landfill is in excess of 800 feet. Golf courses and landfills are
compatible land uses.
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Mr. Flood then asked, "Would a landfill lower property values?" No, a properly
owned landfill will not decrease property values. For example, Vista Ridge Mall and
Xerox both opened near the Lewisville landfill site long after the Lewisville landfill
had already been opened. He gave other examples including the landfills in Denton,
Arlington, and Grand Prairie where construction is continuing to increase and
property values are continuing to go up.
Mr. Flood closed his presentation by addressing the citizens, if they needed further
answers to their questions they will be glad to respond while they were there or
please call the following number. He then thanked everyone for the opportunity to
speak to them.
Mrs. Tyrone -stated they would now open this up for questions.
Thomas Muir - Rt 2, Box 2700 -- indicated he had a few comments. His general
comment was that Sanger was not Lewisville or Ft Worth, and commented that the
size of Lewisville relative to Sanger in acreage, population, however you want to say
it is substantially larger than Sanger, and you see that our lakebelt is still greater
than over half the size and acreage than the Lewisville landfill facility. My comment
is you are sitting on about a 282 acre landfill that if we were to overlay the City of
Sanger with that same acreage I would venture to say most everybody would be
sitting in the middle of trash, because we are not a Lewisville, Sanger is not that
large and you're putting that type of facility in the midst of a small town atmosphere
and it's not a Lewisville. He indicated he did not care how much they want to
compare the two, this was not a good comparison.
Mr. Flood indicated that the big difference was in the height. IESI will develop the
project and will do it very reasonably and it will not be a 15 or 20 story landfill.
The height of the site at the northeast boundary will be the highest level of that
natural terrain and will roll down. "How high?" It will not go above that, it will
be at the natural terrain and indicated that was the first issue. The other issue is
that in his meeting with Tom and his dad IESI committed themselves, because of
the concerns of special waste, that they would let the City define what waste they
wanted to take in to the landfill, other than normal residential household and
commercial trash.
Mrs. Tyrone then asked a question that came through that maybe Mr. Muir would
like to funnel to you is "How high is that going to get in terms of storage?"
Mr. Flood - In terms of storage it cuts into the natural terrain.
(crowd roar)
Mrs. Tyrone stated," just one second, let's hear his answer please."
Fletcher Kelly introduced himself and indicated that they are still working on the
current design. Mr. Kelly indicated the input was important to the final design. Mr.
Kelly indicated that between the highest and lowest point on the property is about
60 feet total. Their intention is to go up just to the edge of the natural grade which
is the terrain.
(tape not clear here)
Mrs. Tyrone indicated that the application had not been filed with the TNRCC yet,
and that they were there at the request of the Council, as well as the request of the
applicant. They were there to try to help the citizens understand what the law says,
and what they want to do. Mrs Tyrone indicated they are not clear on all that they
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would like to do, and were there to try to help them. understand the process.
(Someone in the crowd keeps trying to ask a question and interrupt Mrs. Tyrone.
Not clear)
Mrs. Tyrone indicated there were a lot of people with a lot of questions, and what
she asked was that they tell the person who was coming up to ask their question.
The next person speaking was Wayne Moseley.
Wayne Moseley indicated they appreciated IESI's statement that they will not take
in special waste. Mr. Moseley indicated that his guess was the concern of people in
the community and that is the premise they have been operating under, because
there can always be agreements that are added on to this, and additional amounts
added to the contract and per future agreements made, their premise is what could
this landfill take in if they had that type of permit. If the Council wasn't persuaded
at some point that it needed to be brought in, and that might be a valid reason, but
what could end up in our landfill. He indicated that this was a threatening question
to them.
Mrs. Tyrone asked Mr. Moseley if he was asking if the permit changes at all what
would they be allowed to bring in. She indicated it would call for an amendment
and that amendment would be posted in the newspaper, and that would come before
the public. Again, they can not change their permit once it is issued to just
accommodate any economic desire. It has to be according to what their permit has
been issued for.
Wayne Moseley - "OK, I understand that process because I've spoken twice with
representatives from your office, and actually I've spoken to them about the waste
issue, and I believe I have an understanding. But I want the people to hear what,
if they got a special waste permit, what type of waste could they bring in to the
Sanger area."
Mrs. Tyrone - It would be spelled out in the hazardous waste, it would be spelled
out what kind of hazardous waste because there is some hospital waste that can not
be taken into a landfill. That special package of waste consist of blood parts, and
other items. It has to be shipped to another type of landfill. It would be spelled out
in simple language in terms of what they are allowed to bring in to that landfill. No
matter what category they ship it in, Type 1, Type 2 or Type 3, whatever the waste
is it would be spelled out. The people would see that and the announcement that
would come from the newspaper.
Wayne Moseley - "I think the people are concerned with it going that far. We feel
like maybe we won't have necessarily quite the voice that we have at this stage
before it gets in. Let me make a comment. My understanding to Class I
modifications and what TNRCC has confirmed under 331.36, which says the
following special waste does not specifically require written authorization for
acceptance provided it is handled in accordance with certain provisions. Mr.
Moseley indicated there were some good provisions in there that made this more
tolerable. It names solid waste from health care facilities if they're treated; it
names dead animals, slaughter house waste, those types of items. It names asbestos
containing material; it names empty containers of pesticides and herbicides, those
types of items. It names municipal hazardous waste."
Mr. Moseley indicated these were waste that are without approval of an Executive
Director based on his understanding of the reading of these regulations.
(tape not clear here)
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
11
PAGE 11
Could require a Class I modification to accept that type of waste. .....(tape not
clear here)
Ms. Tyrone indicated when the permit is submitted it goes through an administrative
review and questioning. But during that time the citizens have, everybody has a
chance to request a hearing, and a hearing would have a judge and the whole bit so
there's another opportunity to ask.
Wayne Moseley - "But that could eventually end up in our landfill. Could being the
key word, if appropriate procedures are taken."
These are items like floor tile, ceiling tiles, and things like that.
Mr. Moseley indicated that there were a couple of questions that were brought
forward and were not necessarily the ones he was going to ask so he indicated he
would read them.
Joey Copeland spoke from the crowd and
indicated that
his point when he got up
and spoke earlier was
the citizens will pay
for the cost of
the landfill. It will lower
property values. The
high volume of talking to people he
has already tried to sell
property in this area,
is that they want
nothing to do
with it and now further
evidence is that it will
hurt the citizens of
Sanger.
Thomas Muir thanked the City Council for rescinding the contract. We appreciate
that opportunity to at least step back and reevaluate. I agree fully with Nel
Armstrong's statement about your ability to serve and your intentions, and I think
most people, and I heard it out here when she was walking out, nobody is
questioning those intentions. We have a question about the motivations of our
gentlemen over here. I know they're good fellows, but I feel for their business
positions they have chosen to be in. On their own marketing plan it states
something to the effect that their only weakness is a lack of a Type 1 landfills, and
I believe that they are trying to close a "chink" in this corporate armor, and they're
not really concerned about the welfare of Sanger. As a good neighbor I believe that
they would have brought this before the public and not done their bidding in a
closed door session. This issue has been a source of strife moving forward. The
citizens have tried to stand behind the Council and I think that Council has shown
is that they are willing to stand with us. You have seen petitions, you have heard
personal statements. IESI has gotten to make its direct statements to you about
what it proposes. The Council has deemed it appropriate to rescind the contract.
The Council I think has made its stand on the issue.
(tape not clear here)
Mrs. Tyrone indicated they were already paying for this landfill, and asked a
question that had been brought to her, "Why wasn't this landfill proposal brought
before a vote of the citizens of Sanger." Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Coker indicated he believed the folks have said they elected the Council to
run the City of Sanger. They put their trust in them. The reason it was not
brought out publicly was because of the land situation. The City Council was asked
to keep it under wraps because the price of the land, and that is what the Council
at that time deemed would be necessary or would be the best thing to do. There was
some discussion about it. All of the meetings were posted, all of the meetings the
agendas were on them, so it wasn't a complete secret. He indicated that he saw all
those folks and didn't remember seeing them at any of the Council meetings. Any
way, the Council deemed this was the best way to do it.
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
12
PAGE l2
Wayne Moseley - 1952 Ruling Road - My wife was raised in Sanger and her sister
and brother-in-law currently reside there and operate their own business. I'm Vice
President of Real Estate for construction of a 1,900 store retail chain. I'm involved
in negotiations, the polices and contracts daily. In the fall of 1997 we signed a
contract with Waste Management for the removal of all our waste from all of our
domestic locations. After months of negotiations between Waste Management and
BFI, which I just happened to bring both of their proposals which look like a
doctoral thesis. This is BFI's with their logo. This is Waste Managements. Again,
they look like a doctoral thesis. I think this was Mickey Flood's previous company
if I'm not mistaken. We chose to go with Waste Management. Why did we choose
that? Both of these companies are the largest waste removal companies in the
United States. On of them exceeds nine (9) billion dollars in sales. The other one
exceeds five and a half (51/z) billion dollars in sales. Last record I show for Mickey's
company, this is off their business plan, it looks like their sales in 1997 was 23.4
million. To put that in perspective it would be like putting a Super Walmart up
against a 7-Eleven. Then you can see the differences in the size of these companies.
Where I'm headed with this is obviously we listened to a proposal from a very small
company. We've seen tonight slide presentations, and so forth. If we were
interested in possibly considering something like this why wouldn't we have reached
the largest companies in the United States. They could have made presentations
with lasers, fireworks, displays, provided bar-b-que for us. You name it they would
have done it for us. So that's one question.
Mrs Tyrone to Council - "Why did they choose to go with one small company vs two
of the largest companies in the United States?"
Mayor Coker -The reason we went with IESI is we felt their proposal was a good
proposal. They were willing to work with the City of Sanger on some income which
we are going to be needing. We did talk to Texas Waste Management, or Waste
Management. They made a proposal on using the current landfill that we have out
here but it was more or less going to be a transfer type station, and this was a better
thing. The City of Sanger, as you saw on the board is going to receive a
considerable amount of money to operate the City on.
Wayne Moseley - "Waste Management presently operates a Type 1 landfill in
Lewisville as we've seen earlier. They have been operating that landfill since 1979,
and it has been in operation since 1972. Obviously this is the type of landfill Mickey
Floods' company would like to put in Sanger. The Lewisville dump utilizes 409
acres, same as what we just saw in their video, and they had daily, 450 to 500 trucks
unload garbage in that landfill. The landfill we are considering, 282 acres, well
presently they're making the recommendation that the landfill only follows the
terrain, however, similar to what Waste Management does they are going before the
Texas Board asking permission to expand. Just recently Waste Management got
approval to expand vertically 75 feet, roughly asix-story building. The State
mandates expansions for all landfills. I have personally been to the Lewisville
landfill in the past several weeks. Waste Management assured me at any time, at
any time we could make arrangements for a tour of a state of the art Type 1
landfill. After visiting with these companies they have all expressed three (3) major
concerns. The first concern is the terrible odor. They are eliminated from the
landfill. The second concern is the possibility of contaminations to underground
water from an illegal, and the word is illegal toxic waste. What I mean exactly by
that is they are hired to pick up trash from various companies. If some company
puts something in that container that they are not aware of, that could be toxic and
could be dumped into a landfill. Even though it is illegal they've got toxic waste in
it. They're concerned about that all the time. The third and not lastly is the
problem with birds. If any of you have seen the Type 1 landfill they have an
ongoing problem with birds. We need to stop this project now to save our town and
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
12
PAGE 12
Wayne Moseley - 1952 Ruling Road - My wife was raised in Sanger and her sister
and brother-in-law currently reside there and operate their own business. I'm Vice
President of Real Estate for construction of a 1,900 store retail chain. I'm involved
in negotiations, the polices and contracts daily. In the fall of 1997 we signed a
contract with Waste Management for the removal of all our waste from all of our
domestic locations. After months of negotiations between Waste Management and
BFI, which I just happened to bring both of their proposals which look like a
doctoral thesis. This is BFI's with their logo. This is Waste Managements. Again,
they look like a doctoral thesis. I think this was Mickey Flood's previous company
if I'm not mistaken. We chose to go with Waste Management. Why did we choose
that? Both of these companies are the largest waste removal companies in the
United States. On of them exceeds nine (9) billion dollars in sales. The other one
exceeds five and a half (51/2) billion dollars in sales. Last record I show for Mickey's
company, this is off their business plan, it looks like their sales in 1997 was 23.4
million. To put that in perspective it would be like putting a Super Walmart up
against a 7-Eleven. Then you can see the differences in the size of these companies.
Where I'm headed with this is obviously we listened to a proposal from a very small
company. We've seen tonight slide presentations, and so forth. If we were
interested in possibly considering something like this why wouldn't we have reached
the largest companies in the United States. They could have made presentations
with lasers, fireworks, displays, provided bar-b-que for us. You name it they would
have done it for us. So that's one question.
Mrs Tyrone to Council - "Why did they choose to go with one small company vs two
of the largest companies in the United States?"
Mayor Coker -The reason we went with IESI is we felt their proposal was a good
proposal. They were willing to work with the City of Sanger on some income which
we are going to be needing. We did talk to Texas Waste Management, or Waste
Management. They made a proposal on using the current landfill that we have out
here but it was more or less going to be a transfer type station, and this was a better
thing. The City of Sanger, as you saw on the board is going to receive a
considerable amount of money to operate the City on.
Wayne Moseley - "Waste Management presently operates a Type 1 landfill in
Lewisville as we've seen earlier. They have been operating that landfill since 1979,
and it has been in operation since 1972. Obviously this is the type of landfill Mickey
Floods' company would like to put in Sanger. The Lewisville dump utilizes 409
,p, acres, same as what we just saw in their video, and they had daily, 450 to 500 trucks
c`C unload garbage in that landfill. The landfill we are considering, 282 acres, well
Presently they're making the recommendation that the landfill only follows the
terrain, however, similar to what Waste Management does they are going before the
Texas Board asking permission to expand. Just recently Waste Management got
Q, approval to expand vertically 75 feet, roughly a six -story building. The State
mandates expansions for all landfills, I have personally been to the Lewisville
landfill in the past several weeks. Waste Management assured me at any time, at
any time we could make arrangements for a tour of a state of the art Type 1
landfill. After visiting with these companies they have all expressed three (3) major
concerns. The first concern is the terrible odor. They are eliminated from the
landfill. The second concern is the possibility of contaminations to underground
water from an illegal, and the word is illegal toxic waste. What I mean exactly by
that is they are hired to pick up trash from various companies. If some company
Puts something in that container that they are not aware of, that could be toxic and
could be dumped into a landfill. Even though it is illegal they've got toxic waste in
it. ;They're concerned about that all the time. The third and not lastly is the
problem with birds. If any of you have seen the Type 1 landfill they have an
ongoing problem with birds. We need to stop this project now to save our town and
CITY COUNCH,-06/02/98
13
PAGE 13
the surrounding area from these concerns. Mickey answers questions with the facts
from his viewpoint. I want you to learn the facts from all viewpoints. Mickey
wants to build a dump for his economic reasons. He doesn't care about the
residents of Sanger. This is our community. Let's not let him take it. We live
here. He doesn't. Let's stop the trucks, the foul odors, the bothersome birds, and
the possible contamination of our drinking water and our lake water. To date he's
got a company 800 # that is answered by a PR firm. I've got a 458 # that you can
call me locally. One of the things that I am going to close with is he took several
one page ads, and you know what, maybe I agree with one thing, the truth will
prevail."
Mrs. Tyrone read a question from a citizen in the audience, "Has IESI considered
a geology study since there is an active geological fault line that's along the site in
Valley View?"
Fletcher Kelly -We've only actually got across the first 200 acres. I expect it to be
another three (3) months which is another reason we are having meetings to get
information. We are studying the areas geology, and when we finish the report we'll
be able to look at the divide and the compatibility with the ground source resources
that we have. I appreciate the comment and we are that involved in studying
everything and not just right around the landfill.
Mrs. Tyrone read a
question from
a citizen
in the audience, "I-35 is the gateway to
the City of Sanger.
now close to
I-35 will
the landfill comet
Fletcher Kelly - I-35 has about 25,000 to 30,000 vehicles per day. It's about 2,200
feet from the service road of I-35 to the raihoad tracks.
Ken Kennedy apologized for being a terrible public speaker. He said "I don't do
it for a living. I'm a commercial pilot, I fly for Southwest airlines. I have been a
commercial pilot for 26 years. I've been with Southwest for 15 years. Every week
I'm given a 30 billion dollar jet with hundreds, actually thousands, of people's well
being and lives in my hands. I'm called upon to make some pretty big judgements.
I'm certainly not any smarter than anybody else here. My friends will certainly
attest to that. I'm no better than any one else, but I make some pretty tough
decisions. I always, always, look at the worst case scenario. My question is not to
the Council but you are certainly welcome to join in. To the people, has the worst
case scenario been looked at? I moved up here because two of my friends, one who
has lived here most all of their life, and one of them only 2 years, but it was safe,
clean, a wonderful place to move. I'm Texan by birth, and have lived in Texas all
my life and I've only been up here about a year, and this is an unfortunate situation
to come into. Mr. Moseley eluded to the fact that we really have a small company
and feel that you want quite a bit of expertise almost like if you compare it to my
line of work, would you want an airline built by Boeing or the people who built the
piper cub? Is the Council aware of the violations of McKinney? I received a letter
from them in 1997, okay, and it does seem a bit funny to me that they started
operations in 1997, and in the spring of 97 got a violation letter from McKinney.
It certainly didn't take them long to prove themselves up there. You were aware of
that? Ok, that's good, Ok. And they're still gonna get a contract here, OK, you
can figure it out. Has the Council been to the Lewisville landfill? Ok, you guys
took a tour of that, that's good. I'm not a politician, I don't know about this but
someone mentioned could we annex the property around the landfill to get a little
more control of it. I don't know what that means, but I was asked to ask that. Can
Council guarantee that no one will become sick because of a leakage in the ground
water system, and are you willing to accept that responsibility?"
Mr. Kennedy indicated that he got a letter from Mickey, and so did a lot of other
CITY COUNCIL-06/02I
14
PAGE 14
people, saying we will only dump what is in the household trash. Ok, this is my list
of things and I'm not making this up like Dave Murry says. I looked like a
homeless person last week when I dug through the trash, and I'm not making this
up. This says it was made in Taiwan, no big surprise there. It says you get to
dump it at a recycling place, and it did make it. Paint, and more paint. I didn't
bring the antifreeze jug, it was too big and nasty, and a can of Thompson Water
Seal, not full, but it was only a gallon or so, but all of this goes into a normal
landfill
Jack Walters asked, why was the closed session for this, not a public meeting
violation?
Mrs. Tyrone, to City Council, said they want to know whether or not going into a
closed session, in terms of the consideration of the contract, was this a violation of
public meetings.
Mayor Coker - "I would like to refer that to the City Attorney please ma'am."
Louis Nichols -The agenda for this meeting which you referred, refers to consider
acquisition, of real estate. Acquisition of real estate may be considered in a closed
meeting is not in violation of the law. So if the person reading the laws the decision
was the acquisition of real estate would not be a violation of the public meeting.
Jack Walters - "Thank you very much. Mr. Mayor, members of Council, TNRCC,
representatives from IESI, thank you for listening. The folks in the galley thank
you very much for coming out tonight. I'll make this as quick as possible. My first
concern is for the water in Lake Ray Roberts. The question for Mr. Kelly is how
close does the perimeter of this landfill come to Lake Ray Roberts?"
Mickey Flood - It is probably a mile and a half to two miles to Lake Ray Roberts.
Jack Walters -One other question. What is the closest public water well to the
proposed landfill?
Mickey Flood - "I believe the closest places is the BWS Corporation."
Jack Walters - "The question is how far from the boundary of the landfill is that
water?"
Mickey Flood - "It is between 1200 and 1500 feet from where the northern edge,
about 800 feet from the edge of the property line and another 300 feet from Lois
Lane to the public water well."
Jack Walters - "I don't mean to cut you off but I have some more questions for you.
Does anyone know how many residents that water will serve in that one area?"
Mickey Flood -"I don't have a copy of the billing report."
Jack Walters -" Ok, thank you. How many people are served on the acquifier, and
for lack of a better term, the water that comes out of Lake Ray Roberts and points
south to the cities of Denton, Lewisville, Dallas, and points on farther south of
Dallas. That is a major, major water supply for all of those cities and you just told
me that you're going to put this landfill a mile and a half to two miles, and 1200 to
1500 feet away from a local water belt that serves the City of Sanger. This is
atrocious, this is an outrage ".. (applause).
Mickey Flood -" First there is a landfill there already and it has been carefully
CITY COUNCII.,-06/02I
15
PAGE 15
reviewed, and we are still doing our evaluation to make sure that we can protect it
and all the areas, there is evidence that we can protect it, we believe we can protect
it and that will be supplied to the TNRCC as well as the City for their opinion not
just our opinion."
Jack Walters - "Thank you very much. I do live out in that area, and when we have
heavy rainfall I have seen the runoff that comes from the north side of that hill
Iv going into Lake Ray Roberts and it is amazing the amount of water that one sees
run off..( applause). Next question; What can science tell us about how long this
landfill can protect our water supply, 100 years from today, because I'm not worried
about me, but I'm worried about our children, and the generations to come."
Mickey Flood indicated that the best thing was to look at the past. The City of
Sanger has had a landfill for at least 60 years that I'm aware of and that is a lot
closer to their water supply than we are going to be.
Mr. Walters indicated that he believed it contradicted their policy statement that's
in a letter addressed to Mr. Roy Abney dated May 5th of 98. The Policy statement
is that IESI is committed to responsibilities to the integral part of the community it
serves by donating time money and services to various schools, meals on wheels,
senior citizens community, clean up programs and more. He stated that this clean
up program is what they are doing right now, and restated that it was in the policy
statement. He asked that IESI be as good as the corporate citizens and to consider
the facts he had given about Lake Ray Roberts, and the public water supply. He
asked them not to pollute us, to find another location. He then stated that there are
a lot of folks downstream that are affected by what comes out of this lake and the
tributaries it flows into. He asked that they please consider these too, and not just
the folks in Sanger. He brought up another issue, and indicated that he did not need
a response. He stated that in the document they had received that night , that in the
bottom right hand corner it says that Subtitle D Final Capitol Honor System
discount propose Sanger Landfill for Tarrant County Texas. He stated that he did
not think Sanger was in Tarrant County. He indicated that his point was to show
that mistakes happen and things are overlooked. One little mistake with this landfill
can cost us all a whole bunch. He addressed City Council, and stated that he would
stop at this, he asked who will appoint the committee that will oversee the study of
the proposed landfill.
Mayor Coker indicated that it would be the City Council.
Discussion on what guidelines the City Council would follow
Mr. Walters asked if TNRCC would be involved in this.
Mayor Coker stated that at this time they would not, unless they wanted to be.
Mr. Walters asked "will the City Council entertain inviting the TNRCC to be in on
this from the start?"
Mayor Coker stated that he didn't have any problem with that ,and that he didn't
think that the Council did, and indicated they needed to ask TNRCC.
Mr. Walters said that he had one more comment. He stated that it had been
bugging him for two weeks. He told the Mayor that he had called him one day and
asked him to talk to him on a Sunday night. He stated that he appreciated the
Mayor taking his call. He stated that there were a lot of emotions in the room, and
that he appreciated the Mayor's patience in dealing with the residents of Sanger.
He stated that the Mayor had done a wonderful job in understanding their point.
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
16
PAGE 16
He stated that he had a hard time believing that the business community of Ft.
Worth or Dallas would come to Sanger to play golf on a golf course around a 200
acre landfill. He then stated that he would end his comments by making this
statement, "Everyone says the Savior Jesus was sold for a mere 30 pieces of silver,
don't sell us out either, watch out for the future of Sanger." Mr. Walters stated
that he felt he had worn out his welcome, and thanked the Council for their time.
Also Tyrone thanked Mr. Walters for his time, and indicated she would now
entertain a line of questions. She indicated that the person who was up to speak was
Chris Hayes, then Bob Johnson. She asked for a couple of minutes to go through
the questions that had been forwarded to her.
Ms. Tyrone read the first go.,1V question addressed to IESI. now deep will the landfill
Mickey Flood, IESI - Mr. Flood replied that he believey how deep that the
d b
question must refer to below ground level. He stated that they would not know the
answer to that until they finished all the drilling to make sure where the
groundwater is underneath the site, and what layers of protection lie above that. He
stated that they would probably drill about 25 holes or about a third of the way for
the initial investigation, and that it may require they drill even more holes than that.
He restated that he could not answer the question, and continued to explain that so
far they had drilled to 120' below the actual surface. He stated that the TNRCC
requires certain depth and that they had approved the initial boaring plan and that
the answer was that until you get all the data you don't know. He continued to
explain that they started off with some shallower holes, and that now they are
looking to go deeper to try to make sure they characterize exactly what they're doing
there.
Someone from the crowd asked "how deep is the shell?'
Mr. Flood stated that the first places will be 59' to 60' as they have shown.
Discussion from crowd.
Ms. Tyrone asked the crowd to let him finish answering.
Mr. Flood continued to explain that they will go below the 60' to make sure they
know because they are not sure where the water is, until drilling actually displays
water valves, and they will be there for months.
Brief Discussion,
Ms. Tyrone addresses a man speaking from the crowd, she asks if he would like to
tell him what his point is, and states that he is not asking a question that he is
making a comment.
From crowd someone states that they want to know how far the shell actually goes.
Ms. Tyrone responds that the shell in their area is 60'.
More discussion about shell depth.
Mr. Flood states that the deepest is about 691
.
Ms. Tyrone states that the next question is for TNRCC. She reads the question.
I am on Bolivar Water System, the landfill is across the road from my water
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CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98 PAGE18
emotion is very real and I'm listening, but you don't need to go there, we can hear
it, and I can hear your emotions. You can walk up, I am not a God listening to what
you have to say in my ear, but you can walk up, you can tell me that after it's over
with, but lets not do it here. We have children here and we have elderly people.
Lets respect them and yourselves."
Mr. Fletcher indicated that TNRCC is responsible for specifications of Subtitle D,
and the rules and regulations are extremely strict. He indicated that anything that
they build, whether it is IESI, Waste Management, or any other company or city it
would have to comply with their statements. He indicated that those statements are
there to protect the ground water, and said that if they did not believe that they
could protect the groundwater that they would not be going forward with this
process.
Ms. Tyrone continues with the next question."Utility Road will be used to truck in
trash, does the city realize that Sanger Independent School District is going to have
part of their school programs on that road. Our high school students will be driving
right along side those trash trucks?"
Ms. Tyrone indicated that if she understands the question correctly, that they are
saying the students will be taking drivers education, or are they building along that
area so the students will be exposed to that traffic, and that is your concern?
Someone from the crowd states that there is a facility for Education on that road.
Ms. Tyrone restates that it is a facility for education on that road ,and asks if it is
that they want them to be aware that the decision they are making will be affecting
children that are exposed to that, and the question is "Do you know that that is
there?"
City Council indicated that they did know it, and that it's been taken into
consideration.
Ms. Tyrone continued with the next question. "When detrimental to the community,
shouldn't there be a vote by the citizens, not behind closed doors?"
Ms. Tyrone asked if what they were asking is could they have a public election on
this issue?
Crowd responds "yes".
Mayor states that he would like to refer that to the City Attorney, and let him
answer that.
City Attorney indicated that the City of Sanger is what is called a general law city
and that there is no provisional law for a city to hold a public election, where a
question is submitted to the voters to vote on if they had a choice, it would
guarantee a straw vote and would not be binding, there is no provisional law binding
on this issue, that would bind the city to hold such an election.
A man from the crowd asked, "What's the difference in that and a dictatorship? If
these people are going to represent us, why do they go vote behind closed doors, my
God they do what they want to, we don't have a say, we deserve a say in our
community, it's affecting our lives, most of those people won't even be up there,
they're 60 years old, 50 years old the generation they're going, they're going to be
gone, here's your generation back here sitting against the wall, these kids."
Sherri Lewis, 600 S. lOth - Ms. Lewis addressed the City Attorney and asked if
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
19
PAGE 19
when he went into session and Mayor Coker signed this order for them to buy this
land, if he had signed also.
City Attorney replied that he wasn't there, didn't sign it, and didn't see it.
Ms. Lewis then asked how long he had been the attorney for the City of Sanger.
The attorney responded, "off and on the last two years."
Woodrow Barton, 807 N. 7th St. - Mr Barton addressed the City Council and the
Mayor. He asked if the City Council fails to annex the expanding landfill what
happens?
Mayor Coker indicated that the City Council would not annex the expanded landfill,
unless they were asked to by IESI. The only way the City Council can annex land
is by request of owner. The property has to be adjoining land adjacent to the land
that's being requested and it would have to be done in that way, by being asked.
Mr.
Barton then asks
if IESI
asks the City Council to annex this expanding landfill
and
the City Council
fails to
annex the expanded landfill
land, what happens?
Mayor Coker responds that he has no idea, but states that he can't imagine the City
Council refusing to annex land that's being brought in because of the taxes.
Mr. Barton states that he can answer that question. He says that he is getting the
feeling that the advocation to TNRCC that they or IESI will submit on behalf of the
city may be some three or four months down the road, and if TNRCC takes three
or four months there may be another election of new majority Council members that
would fail to annex this, and he continues to say that if that happens Sanger would
not get the golf course land, and that Sanger would not get the windfall or rebate
from the garbage collection, Sanger would not get any royalties, Sanger would get
nothing. Mr. Barton indicated it would leave IESI with a lease agreement with the
City of Sanger for the 25 acres and just a landfill. He suggests they ask the Council
that if they enter into the contract they just rescinded is that a legal contract?
Mayor Coker
stated that first
of all if we
had a contract to receive the royalties and
so forth, that
he believed the
city would
receive these royalties.
Mr. Barton indicated that it was not what the contract, that was just rescinded,
stated. The only reason it was rescinded was because it was not properly done, not
because of anything else and he asked if the Council would answer that question.
Ms. Tyrone asked Mr. Barton to ask his first question, to get an answer, then ask
his second question.
Mr Barton stated the question, "why did the Council recommend that the city
rescind the existing contract?"
Mayor Coker stated to Mr. Barton that he needed to ask the City Attorney.
Mr. Barton stated that he was asking him (the Mayor) to ask him (the attorney).
The City Attorney stated that it was his recommendation, in conducting the city
meetings, the agenda items didn't state enough information to put the public notices
of what was being considered at that time. He continued, therefore it didn't comply
with the requirements of the open meeting act, and stated that the act was voidable,
which means to set aside. He stated that rather than have an expensive lawsuit, that
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
20
PAGE 20
he would recommend rescinding R.
The
very technicality in that
agenda did
not
have the necessary information to let
the
people know it was
going
to be voted
on.
Mr. Barton replied, "and that's why it's rescinded?"
The City Attorney said,
Someone from crowd asked if the City Attorney could say that one more time.
Ms. Tyrone asked if she wanted a repeat of his answer.
Discussion.
The City Attorney repeated what he stated earlier, and indicated that the reason he
recommended that the City Council rescind the contract, was that the agenda for the
March 6, 1998 meeting did not contain sufficient information to advise the public
that the question of voting on the contract was being considered by the Council that
night. He stated that since it didn't show that on the agenda it was not proper
notification under the Open Meeting Act to let the people know that they were going
to be voting on the contract. The contract would mean that their actions would be
voidable in a court of law. He stated that he recommend they go ahead and rescind
it, and then put it on the agenda for it to be discussed openly.
Discussion.
Mr. Barton asked one final question. He continued that in the interim between
rescinding the contract and the possibility of a new contract, the City with IESI has
submitted an application to the Texas Capitol fund for a grant for $660,000 to build
Utility Road, and run city water and sewer up to this dump site. He asked,
"shouldn't that application be pulled?" He asked that if we have no contract, then
why do we have an application, then asked again "shouldn't we pull that
application?"
The attorney replied that he would imagine that this early it is not issued, if there
is an application, then that will be a new question, because there will not be a grant
from the state.
Mr Barton stated that he was talking about two different state organizations, and
he was talking about the Texas Capitol Fund which provides special money for
community development.
The attorney stated that if there was no application made to the TNRCC, then he
didn't think there would be any money available.
Mr. Barton stated that he understood, but that the application none the less fell in
Austin. He asked, "shouldn't we pull that out and write them a letter stating that
no permit's been issued, and in fact there's not even a contract."
Mayor Coker stated that they voted that night, the Council did, to appoint a
committee to work with the group to see about this. He stated that as far as
withdrawing the application, that he had no idea when they would do that, and
stated that it would be a decision the Council would make, and that they certainly
could not make that decision that night because it was not on the agenda.
Mr. Barton requested to ask one last question of the committee. He asked how long
City Council was going to give the committee to state the facts according to Roy
Lemons' letter to the Council.
21
CITY COUNCIL .06/02/98 PAGE 21
Mayor Coker indicated that he would hope to have something in 30 days.
Mr. Barton indicated then if they give them 30 days, then it was time to hire the
experts, he indicated they didn't really want Flood to hire the experts, they would
hire their own.
Mayor Coker stated that he thought that would be fine. Mayor Coker advised Mr.
Barton they could hire anyone he wanted to, but that as far as the committee's
concerned they would be given 30 days to report back to the Council.
Mr Barton then asked "If that's your decision?"
Mayor interrupted, "Well that's not my decision, that what I'm saying, the Council
has not agreed to that. We just agreed tonight to appoint this committee. We will
discuss this later on in the week and hold an informed meeting on it Mr Barton."
Mr. Barton stated that the Mayor had just indicated he would give them 30 days.
Mayor Coker responded that it was his opinion, and that the Council might change
his opinion right quick.
Mr. Barton said all right and thank you.
Ms. Tyrone said that now she would like to return to the list of people who wanted
to ask questions. She indicated that as she goes back to the list she has Chris Hayes,
Bob Johnson, and Joanne Roberts then she would go back to the questions.
Chris Hayes, before she asked her question, elaborated on a theory in regards to
where she was born and raised, and the issues there concerning a landfill. To
Mickey Flood, you know we've listened to all these issues and all these facts, and I
think it simply comes down to we just don't want the landfill, period. She felt that
they were all spending so much energy in trying to debate these issues, and they
needed to focus and get real simplified, and that is we don't want the landfill. Her
question to Mickey Flood, "how many hard dollars have you actually put into this
project?"
Mr. Flood answers that they have got in this project right now in excess of 1 million
dollars.
Ms. Hayes asked if he could give some general guidelines as to what that
encompasses.
Mr. Flood stated that probably when they meet with the committee, alternatives
would be discussed.
Ms. Hayes interrupted, and asked Mr. Flood to give a general guideline as to where
that 1.4 million dollars had been spent all ready, then asked how many hard dollars
had been spent already in this project, to this day, not what is projected, but today
how many hard dollars did IESI have in this project?
Mr. Flood responded that they had in excess of 1 million dollars right now spoken
for through this project.
Ms. Hayes stated that she said hard dollars, not spoken for. She said that she
wanted to know what he had spent up to this time.
Mr. Flood asked, "is that committed or spent?"
CITY COUNCIL-Uo/02/98
Crowd responds "spent".
PAGE 22
Mr. Flood said, "excuse me, excuse me," then asked "if you have signed a note, and
that note is called to table, is it or is it not true that you're going to have to spend
the money?"
Discussion.
Ms. Hayes stated that she just wanted an honest answer.
Mr Flood stated that he was giving her an honest answer. He stated that they had
totally involved in this project or spoken for in excess of 1 million dollars.
Ms. Hayes asked if the $�50,000 for the land was in that 1.4 million dollars.
Mr. Flood answered that it was not.
Ms.
Hayes
asked if
Mr.
Flood could tell her how he had spent 1.4 million dollars,
and
asked
what he
had
done to spend that kind of money.
Mr. Flood responded that he would be glad to sit down with the commission and go
over that.
Ms. Hayes indicated Mr. Flood was a knowledgeable man, and asked if he could not
A
ive her a general outlay of where 1.4 million dollars had been spent in engineering
fees, in drilling fees, in consulting fees, then and indicated he was telling her he had
spent 1.4 million dollars in this project.
Mr. Flood stated yes, that he had spent in excess of 1 million dollars.
Ms. Hayes asked, "without a contract?"
Mr. Flood said, "I have a contract."
Someone from crowd stated that he did not.
Mr Flood said, "I'm not sure you'll appreciate this, but up until tonight the City and
IESI had formulated a contract in which we leased, we did not purchase, the
property for the landfill. The contract was done in an open meeting, a regular called
Council meeting. The attorney has stated that based on a technicality of not enough
information in what was posted, I would ask the question, that when they went back
and looked at all that was posted for the last 10 years to see what was put on the
agenda's, he would dare say that they did not see a lot more information, than what
was on the one the Council voted awarding us the contract."
Ms. Hayes stated that was not the point, she continued that 10 years ago they did
not want him off their back, and stated that they wanted him off their back tonight
and they were going to use whatever technicality they could to do that. She then
asked based on that technicality and being understanding that the citizens of Sanger
would do whatever it took, she would speak for herself, she continued that maybe
they would take a show of hands, and they were willing to do whatever it took to get
him (Mr. Flood) away. She then asked Mr. Flood if he was going to fight tooth and
nail or if he was willing to walk away.
Mr Flood indicated that he had no intention of walking away from a 1 million dollar
investment. The committee and IESI could sit down and come to some other
amicable resolution, and he would be willing to do that 0 He indicated that when
CITY COUNCIL-06/02I
23
PAGE 23
they went into this contract with the City, there was no malice intended, and IESI
had come to develop a project, and it was a good project. He indicated it would give
strong economic consensus to the City and provide for long term disposal, and it
would enable North Texas and Sanger to have a landfill that is very badly needed.
Discussion.
Mr. Flood said that he had two comments. The first comment was if someone was
out trying to negotiate land, one did not negotiate for different portions of land in
the newspapers. There is talk about property values and the property values on
those four pieces of land have gone up in geometric progression, as far as the
notification that the City made when the vote was voted on it was in open Council
meeting and there was notification and the City Attorney addressed the fact that he
did not think it was descriptive enough.
Betty Bivell asked Mr. Flood if when he went to the City Council were the land
contracts settled?
Mr. Flood indicated that some were, and some were not, then indicated that there
were four pieces of property.
Ms. Bivell stated that in other words Mr. Flood had this land all ready dealt and
done, and then he could have come to the people and told them what was going on,
and that he did not.
Mr. Flood responded that he did not have all the land deals done by the time they
had entered into contract with the City.
Ms. Hayes addressed the folks and City Council members, to reiterate that she just
wanted to keep it real simple, and that is that they do not want a landfill. She
addressed the Mayor and indicated that, a little while ago, she had heard him say
that he was asked to keep this under wraps, and asked who told him to keep it
under wraps.
Mayor Coker responded that it was the discussion amongst all of them. He then said
that he would like to answer another statement that she had just made. The
statement that we don't want a landfill. Mayor Coker continued, and indicated that
in 1988, there was a group that came in from the school, the City Council, the City
of Sanger, and the Chamber of Commerce, that consisted of over 500 people who
were involved in the committee. There were 10 items that they asked the City
Council to consider, and out of those 10 items they were put in order to what they
felt was the most important. He indicated he couldn't recite all of the items, but
that he could tell her that number 1 was a public library, number 2 was a swimming
pool, number 3 was a crisis center, number 4 was a landfill. Mayor Coker couldn't
remember number 5, however number 6, he believed was the golf course, and the
list went on up to number 10. Mayor Coker indicated they have records that were
signed by the citizens of Sanger.
Ms. Hayes indicated she thought they were talking about current issues, that he was
- elected to be the voice of the community of Sanger. She wanted to encourage him
to continue doing what is necessary to represent the voice of the people and not to
represent his own voice.
Bob Johnson, 198 Willowcreek -Alan, TX -indicated that he was president of a
commercial real estate company in Dallas, and that they currently own 300 acres on
the North side of Sanger. It's about 1/4 of a mile due west of the proposed landfill,
and it is right on I-35 and they have owned it since about the early 1970's. They had
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
24
PAGE 24
always had a vision for the property perhaps being a residential or commercial
development. He recognized that the City Council would like that too. They had
waited for the market to appear for that, and recently they had noticed that a sight
would pick up on activity on a sign that is currently placed on that property. Mr.
Johnson indicated that five years ago when that sign was put there that they didn't
have any phone calls, maybe one a year, and in the last six months they had
received one phone call every week about the property, expressing an interest in
buying the property, and within the past two weeks, they had a very serious offer
to buy the property for going into some kind of joint venture. Those contacts
immediately broke off when the landfill information came out, and this particular
person proceeded to seek plans closer to Denton in fear of the landfill. He indicated
that it had scared them away, and from their point of view, they were very
concerned about the damage that's already been done. It concerned them greatly
that the City Council would even consider a landfill, and the word out in the Denton
County Real Estate community put the scare in a lot of real estate brokers at this
point. Mr. Johnson indicated he had seen several examples scare people away from
this community just from the residential end of things. Their concern was more in
the commercial side of that, but that in summary, looking at the dollars that were
stated up there for the income of the City, it seemed to him that the amount of
income was very small. The drop in land values would of course require some
increase in taxes to offset that, and that was one of his fears. He was considering
going back to Denton County and asking them to reassess his property, and to lower
the property values because of the landfill next door. They were all going through
that now in their homes as they send out property notices. This could decrease the
tax income, the school taxes and City taxes. Mr. Johnson indicated this was not a
fact, but a real possibility as they continue to reassess their property values on our
own property as other counties and cities do every year.
Discussion.
Mr. Johnson continued, he was very concerned that in the future the economic gain
as a result of the landfill would be much smaller than any kind of gain that the City
would have as a result of other development that might occur. They think about the
landfill in Tarrant County and the one in Lewisville he could see all of North Texas
was thinking, there's one in Sanger too. There are so many places for development
to go that he could see a lot of the hands steering other directions.
Joanne Roberts - Ms. Roberts indicated that the last time she had talked to them,
she had asked them to have the courage to make right a wrong, and she indicated
that she applauded them for doing that. She indicated that whenever there are two
opposing views, that she always looks at the motivation. She indicated that landfill
companies are a political entity, and that they know how to get into a community.
She indicated that what Mr. Flood did was not unusual, she said that it is usually
the road that is taken. She knew he was a business man and that his motivation was
simple. She indicated that he had over 23 million dollars, and she had a rhetorical
question for Mr. Flood. She asked how many millions does one person need? She
told him that he probably had nice cars, and property, and a boat, and vacations,
which she had none of. She did have an old 189 Honda with 190,000 miles on it.
She then indicated that she was appealing to his environmental side, and said that
when she heard "state of the art" landfill or "state of the art" anything that she
always thought of the nearest space station. If that's "state of the art" that's a little
scary. She was going to speak tonight on groundwater, and she had made this
brochure, with her name on it. She could get experts to go against what ever he
said, and that he could get experts to go against whatever she said. She stated that
it was politics, but she had 3 questions. One question for TNRCC,"How much
credence does public opposition have to an application process?"
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
25
PAGE 25
A representative for TNRCC indicated that first of all he thought the issues the
citizens are thinking about, must be evaluated if it has to go before the board, and
indicated they make a choice as to whether or not there is need for a public hearing,
and that means it goes before a judge, and then when it goes before a judge it is
treated the same as a civil case. He indicated that meant those persons inadvertently
affected by what's coming in to the area. The applicant is first, and during that
time they make the decision in terms of the permit, in terms of looking at that
permit, whether or not they need to recommend two programs or that additional
information needs to be obtained, or that the permits will be approved as written.
He indicated by that time at least 6 months will have passed. They do what they call
administrative plea, sign the agenda, and launch forward with permission.
Ms. Roberts responded that in other words the existing dump isn't close to closure,
and asked if that was correct?
A representative for TNRCC responded, "yes."
Ms Roberts asked when it would be in closure, and indicated that she understood
that it was paperwork problems, and asked again, when there would be closure. She
asked if IESI or the Council could hold that process.
Discussion.
Council discussed that it was a legal question and could not be answered.
Ms. Roberts addressed Mr. Flood, and indicated that she understood that he wanted
to become one of the big dogs, and that it was his motivation, in his business plan,
one of the things he indicated was that there was not in existence a cost effective
substitute for collection and landfill disposal. She asked him if he had a challenge
to maybe turn another corner and become a leader in North Texas for a cost
effective substitute for collection and landfill disposal, and indicated she would like
to hear it, he could be the good guy tonight.
Mr. Flood indicated that they also consider themselves environmentalists, and were
also very concerned about how they went about their business. Mr. Flood indicated
that the folks there tonight, basically implement federal guidelines. They were very
active recyclists, and that they could attest to a number of cities that they service
or that they provide for recycling. They are in the process of building an in home
facility, a recycling facility for recycling of cardboard and newspaper. They provide
for recycling in McKinney. They have one of the very few processing facilities in
North Texas, they also provide for recycling for a number of different other cities.
He indicated the average garbage generated per home is approximately 60 pounds
per week and in the full blown recycling focus you will generate products of
approximately 15 pounds per household, still that leaves 45 pounds of trash. He
indicated that when you look at terms of alternatives, you look at burn plants which
are extremely expensive, they have some serious implications for air quality and air
pollution. Mr. Flood continued that without putting on very significant and very
expensive scrubbers, you look at the alternatives for disposal and an environmentally
secure Subtitle D landfill is needed, necessary, and provides for the safest
economical environmentally secure land disposal facilities in addition to recycling
and comporting. He said that recycling and comporting will not handle all of what
is thrown away.
Ms. Roberts asked Mr. Flood if he was aware that there are some states where there
are no longer landfills being opened.
Mr. Flood responds that if there are no landfills being opened in some states, then
CITY COUNCIL-06/02I
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PAGE 26
they are transferring the trash out of state. He continued that right now in the 48
continental United States, almost all states import and export some waste. He
indicated that New York State, right now is transporting most of their waste out of
state, sending it down to Pennsylvania, and Iowa, and most states are providing for
landfills. Mr. Flood indicated that people generate garbage, it's part of our human
make up, and it's got to be put someplace. The only thing that has happened
nowadays than prior years is the demand for environmental security is a lot more
than what it was before, which is why there are 1800 out of 2000 sites closed.
Ms. Roberts indicated that one of the reasons they were closed is because of the
leachate problems and the requirements for managing that leachate. She then asked
if that was correct.
Mr. Flood stated that prior to Subtitle D, yes, it was. There is a lot of information
that is prior to 1993 when Subtitle D came into affect. When Subtitle D came into
affect a majority of the smaller sites closed. They closed them because of the cost of
construction of a Subtitle D site, depending on the height of the neulogical
subsurface which could run between $200,000 and $500,000 per acre, just
construction and that's not operation cost.
Ms. Roberts indicated to Council that she would just like to reiterate, that they need
a leader who will say no more landfills. They have to start somewhere, it is their
children who are going to be stuck with this and, she didn't want them to be stuck
with this. There are alternatives, and she begged the City Council to look at
alternatives. The landfill does not have to solve the problem. It produces more
problems than it solves. She then thanked them.
Mr. Flood stated that he would be very glad to look at any alternatives, and that the
unfortunate thing is that as many years as he has been in this industry, he had seen
a lot of alternatives. He based this on current data and on the current laws and
regulations. A Subtitle D landfill is the most effective and the most economical, but
said that he would be very glad to look at any other thoughts they may have.
Carol Foreman - Ms. Foreman asked that in his assumption that the application was
getting approved, who is going to take the 1.4 million dollar hit if it is not approved.
Mr. Flood indicated that if it is not approved right now and the citizens of Sanger
don't step up to support the loss that he's incurring after entering a contract with
the Council, then he would guess that it was for them then to decide what the next
step would be as far as what their losses are.
Ms. Foreman asked, "what if the government doesn't approve your application?"
Mr. Flood said that if the government did not approve, it would then be his liability.
Ms. Tyrone, after a quick recess called, indicated that Mr. Andrew Foote, and Mr.
Steven Frank were next on the list to speak.
Brief Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone indicated there were other speakers, Ramsey Foote, and Dennis Cannon,
who indicated they wanted to address the group. Mr. Andrew Foote came up,
however Mr Frank did not come forward.
Andrew Foote, 2725 Marion Rd. - Mr. Foote indicated that his wife, himself and
five children, who are 8 years and under, live there on Marion Rd. He indicated
when this situation first came about, his first thought was, what was in action
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
27
PAGE 27
underneath the qualification as Mayor or a City Council person. He went to the
City Hall to find out what the job description was of a City Council person. He got
a copy of the oath that was taken as pertaining to a City Council person, and in that
oath it stated that as a City Council person that they would uphold the constitution
of the United States, and they signed that oath "so, help me God." He got a copy of
the constitution and began to look through the first paragraph that stated, "we the
people of the United States," it says, "in order to form a more perfect union,
establish justice, secure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense,
promote general welfare, and secure blessings of liberty to ourselves and our
posterity to ordain and establish this constitution for the United States of America."
Mr. Foote continued, and indicated to Council that he had looked up some words.
This should be the guideline that a City Council or Mayor operates and establishes
decisions according to the constitution of the United States. The first thing it says
is to establish justice, and justice is defined in the Webster's Dictionary as
maintenance or administration of what is just. He then indicated that just is defined
as acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good. He said in
other words is this decision, and does it establish justice for the community, is this
morally upright and good? Does it ensure domestic tranquility? Domestic is of or
relating to the household or family. Tranquility is the state or quality of being
tranquil. Tranquil is free from agitation of mind or spirit, free from the servants of
turmoil. Does this decision promote tranquility? He indicated that it goes on to
promote the general welfare. General is defined as involving or relating to or
implacable to every member of a class, kind or group, and that in other words the
whole community. Welfare is defined as the state of being or doing well especially
in respect to good fortune, happiness, well being, or prosperity. He asked if this
established the general welfare of our community as established by the constitution
of the United States. His observation is that this does not establish the general
welfare, being that there are many things that have to be considered in establishing
this type, or any type of landfill. He did not know what type of research was done
before the decision was made, and that according to a lot of research, the group of
citizens in this community have performed, he said he had a piece of HDPE type
liner that was 60 mil thick, which is used in most landfills today. According to
research on this type of a liner system, one of the newsletters in the information
pack on landfill liners that he has, says there is new evidence - all landfills leak,
once the groundwater is contaminated, it can not be cleaned up, and must be
considered permanently destroyed. That is the chance you take with a liner they say
promotes security of the community. He indicated a 1"0 examination of the very
best landfill liners, concluded that the brand new state of the art liner, High Density
Polyethylene(HDPE), will be expected to leak at the rate of about 20 gallons per acre
per day, even if they are installed with the very best and most expensive quality
control procedures, in addition to leakage caused by pin holes and failed seams. It
is a seam that is made by a welder and they go on the seams and they roll out the
plastic. He indicated they could see an example in the Lewisville landfill, because
they are doing this right now. They are expanding and it's welded together, this
plastic is the same plastic, and that he in the automotive business, used on bumpers
periodically, it has to be welded, it gets broken in car wrecks. A 1991 report from
the University of Wisconsin showed that the solutions of common solvents such as
xylene, Ceylon, trichlorethylene, and methylene chloride penetrate HDPE in 1 to 13
days, even an HDPE sheet of 100 mil' thick, 1/10 of an inch, the thickness used in
the most expensive landfills is penetrated by these solvents in less than two weeks.
He indicated there was the groundwater supply that has the potential of being leaked
into within two weeks by certain solvents. He said that obviously in this case he
didn't need to go any further than this, because he thought it was well stated.
According to ethics, he would think that something of this magnitude should have
been discussed by the city council and other members of authority in our city. He
believed that authority was not a place of arrogance, but a place of humility,
because not only was City Council accountable to the people that they serve but the
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
one who created the people they serve. He had a at of all the minutes from January
1st until may 7th, and that the only time anything was mentioned of a landfill or
EESI was on March 6th in which a motion was made by council Kincaid to approve
landfill and Waste Disposal agreement with IESI and seconded by Jenkins. The
motion carried unanimously and the meeting was then adjourned, there was no
discussion, obviously everything was discussed in executive meeting. He did not
know how others felt, but his feeling would be that they were keeping something
from the people of this community, and that any research that has ever been done
always shows that there was strong opposition by the people of the city. He was
really concerned why the question was never raised up, but that they went on the
recommendation to keep it quiet for land purchase procedures. He indicated that it
was not right and that to do the right thing would be to know what the people want,
and to do what the people in this community want. He indicated to council that they
were not there to represent a company or a business or themselves, but the welfare
of the community, not only now but years to come. He proposed that all the stations
that are made by city council should have guidelines, and that the one thing for sure
is that the guideline should be the constitution of the United States of America. The
other guideline that he believed appropriate for Sanger, is that there is a motto
"someplace special", and he proposed to the council that every decision that is made
from here forth, would be to keep Sanger "someplace special." He indicated that if
it did not line up with the very thing of keeping Sanger "someplace special" then it
should not be considered. He asked City Council to reconsider making a committee
to reconsider this, and to stop it at this point and time because, the citizens of the
community aren't looking for a better way to put a landfill here, they do not want
a landfill here. They did not move to this city to live next to a landfill, in fact many
of the people in this community will potentially move from this community. He
knows many people that already stated they will move from the city if this landfill
comes here, he thinks that should be strongly considered, not only in property
value, but how many people will fail to move to this community. He indicated that
he for one, would leave this community and move out to a place that was tranquil,
a place that he could raise his children out in the country. He felt like he had gone
into a restaurant, and was served by an authority in this city, and did not get a
menu, and was served a plate of food that he despised, and was told to eat it, he
had been force fed this plate of food that he despised, and felt like the whole
community would probably attest to that's the way it feels. The community has no
say in this matter whatsoever, and he gave one more example, that not only did this
happen March 6th, but that at the beginning of the meeting tonight there should not
have been a vote taken to form a committee, until the council heard the response
from the citizens of this community. They should have heard from the people that
they represent. There was no discussion about it at all. He asked the ladies and
gentleman that represent them as the citizens of Sanger to begin to represent them
from this day forth.
Mr Foote made just one more comment. He had a letter from the owner of the
newspaper, Roy Lemons, and he knew it was a letter that all the council had
received as well, and he was concerned that a man sends out a letter with a
recommendation to a committee and the council decided to go with this
recommendation of a man who owns the newspaper in town. He is the same man
that when the news came out about the landfill, came out with a newspaper article
not about the landfill, but the fact that IESI donates 140 acres to build a golf course
as the headline. He said that he thought that it was very deceptive to bring out the
news as impacting to the community as a landfill, to bring it out in the form of a
donation of a golf course that could easily be taken back in two years. He asked
that the council do some bidding of the people of the city, and not particularly one
people's interest in the city. The letter stated that Mr. Lemons thought that the
idea of a landfill was good, obviously he Mr. Lemons is for the landfill and the
council went with his suggestion. He was concerned that without the input of the
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
29
7[e�]
people that they represent, that they went with his recommendation without hearing
their input.
Ms. Hayes indicated she had a question concerning the decision to appoint this
committee since they were on the topic. She indicated it was clear by Mr. Flood's
remark to her, that he would be willing to sit down with the committee to discuss
amicable solution to the 1.4 million hard dollars that he had put into this project,
this tells her that he all ready knew about the appointment of this committee. She
wanted to know how IESI knew about this appointment of the committee by this
evening, when the people did not yet know about the appointment of this committee.
Mayor Coker indicated that he did not know that IESI knew about this committee,
but that he wanted to answer a question asked a minute ago. They had received
the letter only today, or he received his today. Mayor Coker indicated that the
council agenda was posted last Friday, and that he received a copy from Roy
Lemons today. He indicated how Mickey Flood could know about it, that they would
need to ask him. He did not know when the rest of the council received their's.
Discussion.
A question from the crowd. Mr. Foote entertained a question to the council that was
left unanswered. "Will the city council entertain opening up the agenda again and
reconsider the designation of this committee after you've heard all the citizens
input?" he stated that the question was left unanswered.
Mr Kincaid stated that he would answer the question if they did not mind. He
indicated that there were two questions that he wanted to answer. First he wanted
to answer the young lady's question as to when it was that they (the council) found
out. That part of that was answered, and if one wants to know anything about
when they are going to do it, it is posted 72 hours before on the door of the city hall,
and it had been there prior to the meeting. He indicated that all she had to do was
look, and asked for Mr. Foote's question to be repeated.
The man from the crowd repeated the question,"will the city council entertain
opening up the agenda again and reconsider the designation of this committee after
you've heard all the citizens input?"
Mr Kincaid indicated that he would answer that question for his part of it, he had
made the motion, and he did not want to close the door and walk away from this.
He pointed out if Mr. Flood gets the permit from TNRCC, what has been done then
is that they have not stopped it, but have made it grow into a monster. In
summary, Councilman Kincaid asked, could they take a chance and not be involved?
Could the citizens guarantee he would not pursue the permit without the city, and
do they want to play poker and take that chance.
Discussion
Ms. Tyrone wanted to inject something. What Mr. Kincaid indicated is that as long
as the city had input into the permit, then City Council have a controlling issue. She
indicated if the council withdraws from any input into the permit, that it leaves the
company the opportunity to apply for a permit on their own which excludes input
from the city. IESI could apply for a permit even though the council has conscended
there contract with them. She indicated what the council was trying to tell them was
that it was important to them ,they felt to keep input, to be able to have a part of
control, and that is what they have been trying to say, she was not defending them,
but that she was just stating the facts.
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
fci17
PAGE 30
Someone from crowd asks that if the citizens of Sanger could raise 1.4 million
dollars to put into Mr. Flood's hand if he would leave.
Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone said, "dealing with the issue, 1.4 million dollars, if the citizens pull
together and gave it to Mr. Flood."
Discussion.
S. Tyrone asked the crowd to let Mr. Flood answer his question.
Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone asked Mr. Flood if he would care to address the question.
Mr. Flood stated that he did not come tonight prepared to answer that, he says
however that what he would do was when the committee did form that they will
certainly consider that as one of the options. He indicated they were asking if he
was prepared to leave the project, that right now his attorney had not advised him
that this contract was completely broken. He stated that in all good faith and
conscience, that he did not know what options or alternatives he had. He indicated
he would consider it, if it was something that the committee and IESI took into
consideration.
Ramsey Foote, 2725 Marion Rd. -She stated that three weeks ago she was
introduced to IESI when they knocked on her door. She stated that she had asked
several questions. "Will there be toxic waste?" No, they failed to tell her that there
would be special waste, which in her eyes was toxic. She stated that he failed to say
"under present agreement". She stated that he also said that there was no smell, that
the liner would not leak, and when it does ... she continued "it's kind of
contradictory." They also stated "besides the water flows more to the South, you're
on the East side of it, so it won't affect you." she continued, "the majority of the
population lives South of the proposed landfill," and she indicated to IESI she was
not only in this to save her and her family, but she was concerned about the
generations and the majority of the population. She stated that she called Mr. Flood
three times and asked the same question that she received three different answers.
A young lady at the last council meeting had introduced herself as Channel 8 news
coverage. Ms. Foote said that moments later the young woman said that she must
be honest with them, and that the young woman said that she did Public Relations
work for IESI. Ms. Foote stated that Mr. Flood had stated to the city council that
if the people did not want the landfill that they would pack up their toys or bags and
go home, and tonight is the first night that the people have been invited to voice
their opinion. Mr. Flood, when he was asked if he remembered saying this he
answered, "if so I meant it before investing so much." He should have asked before
investing so much, and in her eyes, anything that he had invested prior to asking
their open and honest opinion, was his loss. The list goes on, and that time did not
allow them to share all the areas of deception that IESI operates under. In Mr.
Flood's recent article he had said that the truth will prevail, then said "this is my
hair," then asked, "or is it?" She had exposed her true hair, and indicated that the
Lord Jesus Christ would expose IESI's deception. She told them then to mark her
words, and said that her God would not be mocked. She then repeated that her God
would not be mocked. She indicated liars will not inherit the kingdom of God, and
from this day forward, promised Mr. Flood, that his business would fail in Jesus'
name. She suggested that he submit to God and that if not he was majorly
hellbound. She then stated that it was a scary thing, and told him that it was not a
joke, that hell is not a place where you party with your buddies. She stated that hell
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
31
PAGE 31
is a place of gnashing of teeth, and told him that he would not take Sanger with
him. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. She told him that he was not
fighting this battle with the people of Sanger only, but with the Lord Jesus Christ.
"Choose you this day, city council, whom you will serve, hellbound IESI and their
deception, or the people that want to serve the Lord Jesus Christ." She asked that
if the Lord Jesus Christ was for them , then who could be against them. She then
suggested that he pack up his bags now as he had promised, and go home.
Dennis Cannon, Flower Mound - Mr. Cannon stated that he and his wife had been
looking at property in the surrounding area of Sanger for the past couple of years.
He stated that he would make his statement brief. They had been very serious about
this area, and it was a perfect spot for them to live, and that it was about 45
minutes from where they live. They had always wanted to live kind of out in the
country, and when they heard about the possibilities of this project coming here, he
stated that it was shocking. He talked to his wife and told her that they could
probably buy some property here real cheap now. They just got a real sick feeling
about it, and they do not want to move here with this looming in the air. The
environment, their children, everything that's involved, it is was a very negative
situation from an outsider looking in on all of it. He he could promise that it was a
very negative atmosphere, and had decided that until this thing (the landfill) is put
under the table, and until the decision is made that it is not going to move to
Sanger, they will not move to Sanger. As a professional, they had also considered
putting a satellite practice in the Sanger area, and had talked to one of the real
estate companies here, a while back about that, and about their home here. They
now decided to hold of. He thanked the Lord Jesus Christ for discernment , and
stated that they were going to stick with their decision until it was off the dockets
100%, then thanked them.
Discussion.
Someone from crowd said that he would like to finish the conversation with Mr
Kincaid that they were having a few moments ago. He said that they were on the
fact that the city was trying to maintain some operational control, for some type of
control over this facility to keep it from becoming monstrous.
Mr. Kincaid responded that yes, that was the reasoning for the motion, why it was
done and personally he did not care if the motion was not there, and that in fact it
did not matter to him. He said that he was trying to give the people a little more
control.
The same man responds, saying that it sounds like, from that comment, that this
was a done deal already.
Mr. Kincaid indicated he did not know if it was a done deal, that they have
rescinded the contract, and the lawyer says that it's fine, and that is all they have
- - to go by. They had a voidable contract that had to be rescinded, and they did what
they were told to do. They could renegotiate, but that he did not know, and that this
was for the people.
Richard Muir - Mr. Muir asked Mr. Kincaid if he knew how long the landfill was
supposed to be in operation.
Mr. Kincaid said probably about 30 years.
Mr. Muir stated that this thing was all ready a monster if it was going to be in
operation for 30 years.
CITY COUNCIL-Uo/02/98
Mr. Kincaid said that he understood that.
PAGE 32
Mr. Muir asked, who at the city had the expertise to oversee any decisions that IESI
might have about changing what's going to be aloud to be put in this landfill. He
stated that Mr. Kincaid was saying that we were going to have more control over
it by working with IESI, than having them go in and do it themselves. He asked if
the City of Sanger had the expertise to control that landfill without being influenced
by IESI.
Mr Kincaid said that they do have the expertise, as long as they have control of the
permit. He had told them a while ago that TNRCC had control of the permit and
any decision to be made had to come through them, and it was the controlling part
he was talking about.
Mr. Muir indicated that he thought they needed to find more than control ,and said
because if they give us control with the present education of the people on the
committee or board as well as the TNRCC to research all these issues and know
what the technichalities are, he said it takes expertise and it takes time to do all
these issues. He stated that it takes a commitment from the city to ensure IESI is
going to be in compliance. He really appreciated him taking this time to have this
discussion with him, and stated that again Mr Foote had a question in front of the
city council to reconsider the earlier motion.
Mr
Kincaid
stated that he would
deal with that if they got it placed on the agenda
for
the next
week for the city to
rescind.
Discussion.
Mr. Muir said that he would ask the question again to Mayor Coker. He asked
Mayor Coker if the city would reconsider placing this item to rescind this proposal
to form a committee at next weeks town council meeting.
Mayor Coker said that he would not say, because he did not know if the council
would want that on the agenda, and it would have to be discussed at the next council
meeting. They would make the decision at that time.
Mr. Muir asked if the town people could have input on that agenda, and asked that
it be placed on the agenda.
Mayor Coker said that as far as he was concerned, if they wanted it on the agenda,
that he had no problem with it, but he said, that it will not be an open forum
meeting if that was what they were asking for.
Mr. Muir asked that Mr. Foote's question be placed on the agenda, and it be
considered at next weeks town council meeting, to not form this committee to study
the ability of a landfill here in Sanger. There was not one person there that spoke
in favor of the landfill, except for IESI. The people have spoken, and said that they
were asking them to have it put on the town council meeting again next week to
reconsider the forming of this committee. He then thanked them for their time.
Discussion.
Mr. Foote stated that he would like to see that the city council reconsider this
motion that was made to form a committee, before they heard the input from the
citizens of this community. He as them to please put it in writing for the next
meeting.
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
33
PAGE 33
Mayor Coker stated that as far as putting it in writing, he thought the city council
voted tonight to appoint a committee to try to work things out, and said that he
thought that the council evidently felt like that was the best thing for the city.
Mayor Coker indicated that in answer to the gentleman's question from the back,
he did not know that the council wanted that on their agenda. They had already
voted to do it this way, and if he were him, he would talk to some of the members
or talk to a city council member. They heard the motion made, and saw the council
vote, and that it was a 3 to 2 vote, and it was the way it was, until the council
changes it.
Mr Foote stated that it seemed like such an important issue, and that there was no
discussion, he stated that he was curious to know why there was no discussion.
Mayor Coker responded that there is no discussion on council votes like that.
Mr Foote indicated that he thought maybe there was discussion between the council
and asked if they had discussed it already. ,
Mayor Coker indicated that there had been no discussion made on it.
Someone from crowd asked if it was correct that they (Sanger) had a post closure
landfill, and if it was not closed yet it still belongs to Sanger. There has been no
application to the state for a landfill, and asked if that was correct.
Mayor Coker indicated that it was correct.
The same person from the crowd asked if )ESI wanted to apply for a permit for a
landfill with the existing one that is all ready there, to reopen it. She asked if that
- was correct.
Mayor Coker indicated that it was correct.
She then asked if they needed the city in order to do that.
She understood that it was part of the contract deal, and asked if IESI could apply
for an application to the TNRCC without the existing landfill. She asked them to
respond yes or no.
Brief Discussion
It was confirmed that they could but that it would be better if they did not, that the
process would be shorter by doing it.
Jane Edwards, 906 Church St. - Ms. Edwards stated that she had lived here since
1983. She said that for a while she had lived in Justin, and that they had successfully
defeated a landfill. She stated that it was on 407, between I-35 and 156, and that the
difference in what the people did there and what they were here doing now, is that
here they were beating the same thing to death, and stated that those things were
mainly the council members and Mayor. They had spent their energy in garage
sales, and big fancy parties and they tied the permit part of the landfill up so long
that it was not profitable any more. The 1.4 million dollars mushrooms into bigger
things, and she told them that with the threat of keeping on with this, to remember
that they felt very strongly about this and that the people in Justin did also. The
people in Justin tied the permit up for an excess of five years, and the land is still
sitting there, owned by the people that bought it for the landfill. It made nice farm
land, she asked that they quit beating their council people and Mayor. They were
wasting their energy, and suggested that they take there energy and help do garage
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
PAGE 34
sales, and whatever else it takes. They would not give Mr. Flood his money back,
and that was a chance they took. If they had money they could hire lawyers. The
Council had rescinded the contract, and they (the council) had done the best they
could. They had listened to them and that was what the people had asked them to
do, and they should stop right here and get their own little committees together and
start bringing in money to fight what they knew what was going to be a hard battle.
It was going to take years, and asked the people if they had what it was going to
take.
Michael Christie, 6001 Grimley Ln. - Mr. Christie addressed the Mayor. He stated
that he may not had figured right, but the Mayor had said that in 1988 the citizens
wanted a landfill, and asked if that was correct.
Mayor Coker stated that he believed it was correct, and he had the book out in his
automobile, and would be happy to go get it and show it to him.
Mr. Christie asked if there was not a landfill in operation then.
Mayor Coker responded that he was not sure.
Mr. Christie stated that it did not close until 1991.
Mayor Coker indicated that the one that is out there is a transfer type landfill, and
he did not know what type they had then, the book was in his car,and he had the
articles, and would be more than happy to get it and let them see it.
Ms. Tyrone indicated that transfer meant trash is received, the truck was there, and
it would transfer the trash to some other landfill.
Discussion.
Mr. Christie stated that he had one other thing, and asked about the
committee they were talking about, he as if they were going to have
anyone on the committee that was outside of the city limits.
Mayor Coker responded that he did not know whether they would or not, and the
council had not talked about it. It had not been decided, and they did not know
about numbers, and the council would have a meeting and make those decisions.
Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone, in answer to another question, indicated that the landfill that was
there, was a regular landfill during that time period, it had closed in 1991.
Kent Crutsinger, 10250 Keaton Rd.- Mr. Crutsinger addressed the council and Mr.
Smith, and was trying to be open minded as Mr. Kincaid had said from the
beginning. He asked if the Council or Mr. Smith if they had projected how much
revenue they estimated the possible golf course to generate for the community of
Sanger.
Mr. Smith indicated that they had not.
Mr. Crutsinger questioned that they had entered into the agreement, but yet they
had no numbers about how much revenue it was going to generate for the city.
Mr. Smith indicated that he wanted to point out to Mr. Crutsinger that numbers
can be misleading, and he could get someone to say that they could make $5.00 a
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
35
PAGE 35
year, but he could also get someone to say they could make a million dollars a year.
Mr. Crutsinger asked if they had researched the fact of how much impact it was
going to have on the M&O side of the budget or the I&S side of the city budget,
pertaining to that they had to purchase equipment to keep the update of a golf
course, and asked if that was on the I&S side or the M&O side. He indicated a
concern as to whether or not they had researched those questions.
Mr. Smith indicated that the equipment would be put on the M&O side.
Mr. Crutsinger stated that they would have to raise taxes in order to
subsidize the I&S side.
Mr. Smith stated that
they were
going to
put it to the general fund, and since it is
where it comes from,
the taxes were sales
taxes.
Mr. Crutsinger indicated that he worked for the district and that he appreciated the
job that they did, and he knew it was tough. He indicated that he did not look at
the golf course revenue as generating aspect for the community of Sanger, then it
would be quite proof for them to have some quotes, as he projected estimates, on
revenue first of all, and that second he asked how it was going to impact the M&O,
and I&S side to make sure that they did not have to come back to the city and the
community before time, and say that they were sorry, and that they were going to
have to raise taxes in order to subsidize, to keep the golf course in operation at that
time. He indicated that was all that he would like to say and thanked them.
Tony Tipton - Mr. Tipton stated that he had lived in Sanger about 6 years, and he
had bought a house about two years ago, and not one person in the town of Sanger
said anything to him about a landfill. Everybody had a lot of personal issues there,
and he had lived here, and almost two years ago had bought a house and had no
idea about a landfill here. "Does it bother me?" he asked, and it did, but stated that
of the people that had lived there, that he did not see any of them walking around
with three ears or six toes or whatever, and said that they were not harmed by it.
This was his personal feelings, and he would much rather the City of Sanger
regulate what Mickey Flood was going to do.. (discussion in crowd). He had listened
to every one of them stand up and gripe, and gripe, and gripe, and he agreed whole
heartedly with the lot of them, and he was upset with the real estate companies
because they did not inform him that there was a landfill in Sanger, when he bought
his home. He liked Sanger, he had moved here because the people are very nice and
kind, and he was embarrassed at the way some of them were acting. Mickey Flood
was a human being just like himself, and he would much rather the City of Sanger
regulate the landfill than him (Mr. Flood) going ahead and doing what the heck he
wanted.
Discussion.
Mr. Tipton asked," How long has the landfill been there?"
Someone from the crowd asked if he (Mr. Tipton) was there then.
Mr. Tipton indicated that he was not there, nor was he told that there was one.
Someone from crowd stated that it had closed down.
Mr. Tipton asked again if anyone knew how old the landfill was.
Discussion.
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98 PAGE 36
Someone from crowd answered that it had been there since 1981.
Mr. Tipton indicated that his real estate person should have prudently, told him that
there was a landfill in Sanger number one, and that number two, there was still the
episode out in Pilot Point. Lee Kerr had bought property that was zoned
commercial, and the land owners had a big lawsuit. He stated that he was sure they
had seen it, the property was zoned for that particular thing, and that if his (Mr.
%od's) application goes through then he is going to run the landfill and be able to
put whatever the TNRCC allows him to, and Sanger will not recoup any of that
money.
Discussion
Mr. Tipton indicated that the landfill is zoned, something or other, in agriculture.
Discussion.
Mr. Tipton indicated he was not saying that he was for it.
Vicky Somers - Ms. Somers indicated she would like to address part of what he
(Mr. Tipton) was saying. She was a realtor, and worked for Keller Williamsoffice.
She was saying this for herself, and not Keller Williams. What Mr. Tipton was
talking about as far as the landfill, was 25 acres of more or less a dump station now
because it was supposed to already be closed. She told Mr. Tipton that he was not
talking about a 282 acre landfill. The landfill that Mr. Tipton was referring to, the
one he was not told about, she had only found out about 4 weeks ago and it was
only disclosed March 6th. When he bought his home 24/2 years ago, that he could
not have been told about something that hadn't happened until March 6th.
Mr. Tipton stated that he should have been told by someone who had been selling
real estate for the last 10 years.
Ms. Somers said "not if it didn't happen."
Discussion.
Ms. Somers indicated she could not tell him about something 2-1/2 years ago, or say
today about something that will not happen until 2-1/2 years later, and did not have
a crystal ball to see into the future. Mr. Tipton's real estate agent could have told
him about the 25 acre landfill that had closed or supposed to have been close in due
technicality. She stated that the 282 acre landfill that he was talking about, was not
even proposed.
Mr. Tipton stated that he totally agreed with Ms. Somers.
Ms. Somers indicated if he Mr. Tipton was talking about the land that is under
zoning right now being used for the landfill, that 25 acres is a landfill, and 282 acres
around it were agriculture, this is what it is zoned.
Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone indicated that the fact is, as the lady stated, that they could not be told
anything that had not happened yet.
Discussion.
Mr. Tipton indicated that somebody allowed the existing landfill to be there, and
CITY COUP ILL-06/02I
37
PAGE 37
that he was not kicking, or sitting there saying he did not want the landfill. There
is all ready an existing landfill there, there is still trash and stuff is seeping from
that trash. He asked what was put in the landfill, and if there were any regulations
when the trash was put in.
Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone indicated according to the past permit for the past landfill, the type of
trash that was placed in the landfill was not hazardous. She then asked TNRCC if
that was correct.
A representative for TNRCC replied that it was municipal solid waste, or household
trash.
Ms. Tyrone asked if it was considered a Type 1.
TNRCC indicated that it was called a Type 2, and it was called a Type 2 because it
was the same as a Type 1, and the size of the facility, and the size of the area it
qualified as Type 2. They closed the Type 2 and are reopening it under Type 1.
Mr. Tipton asked what kind of care was given to keep the trash from seeping into
the water now.
It was the rules that were in place at that time.
Mr. Tipton asked what those rules were, and if they were as stringent as they are
now.
TNRCC indicated that they were not.
Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone indicated that everything had changed and that there are more stringent
laws now, than they had before. It changed with the Legislative Session in 1993. The
Legislative Session meets every 2 years, and they were about ready for another one.
It was federal rules, and there lies a big difference in State and Federal rules.
Mr. Tipton asked if he understood correctly, IESI was going to take the remaining
trash, whatever was left there and move it to a better contained area.
Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone indicated to Mr. Tipton that it was not in writing, that they were still
flipping the coin with the decision in terms of what they plan to do, and would do.
She said that at that time, to say what they were going to do was not really legal,
and that they had not applied to TNRCC for an application. She indicated that they
were planning to, but that it had not transpired and that nothing had happened.
Mr. Tipton indicated he knew everybody disagreed with what was going on there.
He stated that he had sat there and listened to them, and that he agreed with
probably 99% of them. The truth remained that he would much rather have the city
be able to regulate it, than to let them do it and not be able to have any control of
it. They needed to get involved and be on a committee, so that they could form a
committee and actually be on the ground level and be able to say yea or neigh.
Someone had asked about expertise as far as city council, they had asked who will
have the expertise as to say what should go in the landfill and what shouldn't. They
call it population, and that he was sure that they could find 10 individuals smarter
UL I x COUNCIL-06/02/98 PAGE 38
than himself who knew more about landfills ... (interrupted by discussion)
Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone indicated that Mr. Tipton had the ability to make his say, and that all
she was trying to do was to keep him from getting to the point of being repetitive.
She just wanted him to get to his other questions if he had any, and to be sure that
he was fairly heard.
Discussion followed a citizen making a statement, and the crowd voicing opinions.
Mayor Coker indicated that he was not saying that IESI would build a landfill, it
wasn't a threat. He stated that he was asked if they could, and then stated that yes
they could still make application if they want to.
Mayor Coker indicated that he was hoping that Mr. Flood and his group would meet
with the committee of Sanger citizens, so they could work out any problem that
night come up. It was what he was hoping, and did not know if IESI would back
off. He did not know what they were going to do , but it was a start to try to resolve
the problem and to try to get everything worked out, and it was the only way he
knew how to do it.
Ms. Tyrone indicated that one thing that could happen in this process, is that it
could go through a hearing process, she had told them about this earlier, that on
this regard it is a stone judgement, which they offer in administration hearing, and
that if that is the case, it is heard by the judge, and when that is done and the
hearing is passed on to the three commissioners who make a call based on the facts
that they receive from that hearing. The hearing has to be requested by the citizens,
after an application has been submitted. Once the application has been submitted,
there is a posting, then they have the right to request a public meeting and a public
hearing.
Ms. Tyrone indicated there is only one posting after they apply. It is supposed to be
posted in a newspaper that is considered the larger vitality publication that covers
the large circulation of that county.
Ms. Tyrone indicated that it could be so, as long as that is what they would consider
as publishing it in the largest circulation, where they feel it circulates the most
people.
Ms. Tyrone wanted to give them more information. She stated that TNRCC had a
toll free number so they did not have to make a call based on their own nickel, and
the number was for the office of public assistance, which was 1-800-6874040, and
asked the citizens to call that number during the day, and ask their questions and
that anyone there would be willing to assist in getting the information they
requested. The person may have to call them back, however they would be willing
to get the information, if they wanted to know about a permit, or the state of a
permit all they had to do was call. The call was free and they did not have to pay,
and apologized for keeping them waiting, and as soon as the next gentleman finishes
it was only fair and equable that she make an attempt to read the questions. She
asked the nest gentleman to proceed briefly.
Clifford Curtis, Freewillow Canyon - Mr. Curtis addressed the city attorney and the
council. He said that he was wondering if when they looked at the overall situation
and could see that IESI was going to be able to get it done if they then decided that
they would get the best arrangement they could for the City of Sanger.
CITY COUNCIL "Uo1U /98
T
PAGE 39
Mayor Coker indicated that it was not the idea, and they did not know they could
get a permit regardless, they had not thought about it, and it was never brought
up. They had dealt with it as a business matter, and as a business decision, and that
they felt it was a good decision.
Bob Foreman, 314 Church - Mr. Foreman indicated that he was trying to figure out,
then commented that he might have been sleeping back there, and continued saying
that his question was that when IESI goes ahead and bores their way into the
community who was going to build the roads? He knew there had to be roads going
out there, and they had to be paved. The roads had to be paved because they had
to be safe roads, up to standards. He asked who was going to ship them water or
put the water out there? He then asked how in the name of God they were going to
hold on to the sewer plant when they couldn't take care of the one they had now on
the other end. He asked if we had the right as a city to vote down the taxes for the
road, the sewer, the water. and asked how could they to operate if they didn't give
them water, or sewer, and didn't pave their roads.
Mayor Coker said that first of all the roads, there was a grant applied for.
Mr. Foreman interrupted and asked who had applied for it.
Mayor Coker answered that the city had applied for it.
Mayor Coker indicated that the city had applied for a grant for utility road, and
indicated that was Mr. Foreman's number one question; Number two was the water,
and that IESI could drill their own wells. They did not have to use the City of
Sanger for their water, and as for the sewer that IESI could either tie into the sewer
lines that the city currently had out there running to KT's, or that they could haul
the water off if they elected to.
Mr.
Foreman asked
how
they were going to get
the sewer plant, and indicated that
the
sewer plant they
had
at the time could not
take it.
Mayor Coker responded that the sewer plant was being doubled in size, and that;*
was under construction.
Mr. Foreman asked if it was going to be able to handle as many acres as what IESI
was putting in.
Mayor Coker said that it would be able to handle the amount of water that they
were putting into it.
Mr. Foreman asked where the money was coming from.
Mayor Coker stated that it was a grant, and then indicated it was a loan, the City
had to borrow the money.
Mr. Foreman asked who was going to pay the money back.
Mayor Coker cated it was being paid back by the people who use the sewer.
Mr. Foreman said that these people, who use the sewer, were in essence paying for
their (TEST) sewer.
Mayor Coker said that the sewer lines all ready ran out there.
Mr Foreman indicated that they had to hook up to it, and then asked if that was
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98 PAGE 40
correct.
Mayor Coker indicated he was right.
Mr. Foreman stated that they had to apply to the city.
Mayor Coker indicated that he was right.
Mayor Coker indicated that the City of Sanger had agreed and signed a contract to
do each of those things that he was talking about. The contract was rescinded, and
that they were going to try to get a committee to work those things out.
Mr. Foreman indicated that the only thing he had to say to the city council was that
he had lived with his wife, in this area for about 8 years, and that when something
this important came into a city council and is detrimental to the community and to
the health and welfare of the community that the citizens had the right to stand up
d be counted and give them their opini anons of what they do and do no want.
Mayor Coker indicated it was true 100%, and he could also state that every time
there was a city council meeting, there was an agenda posted 72 hours in advance,
and all he had to do was go by and read the agenda. Everytime a meeting is
scheduled an agenda is posted by law.
Mr. Foreman indicated it was true, that every time the agenda was put up, that they
were given rules and regulations and a certain amount of time to say what they
wanted to say. It was dictated to each individual who came to the meetings what
they could and couldn't say.
Mayor Coker indicated that it was not dictated what they could or couldn't say.
If they wanted to speak and they did not ask to be on the agenda that they were not
aMowed.
Mr. Foreman indicated that the people had just asked to be on the agenda and they
couldn't let them.
Mayor Coker indicated that he had said they needed to talk to a city council
member.
Mr. Foreman asked who the chairman of the board was.
Mayor Coker indicated that he was.
Mr Foreman said, okay.
Mayor Coker indicated that he was the Mayor of the City of Sanger, but he would
tell anybody out there that if they wanted on the agenda they could talk to council
members. The council had voted, and that the council had voted two weeks ago.
Mr. Foreman then made a statement, one that he went by he said "united we stand,
divided we fall", and then indicated he was appalled that the City of Sanger was
even looking at junk like that. He asked what Sanger was going to be known as, and
than stated, "the northern dump." He thanked them.
Ms. Tyrone indicated that she wanted everyone to remain awake as they proceeded,
she was headed on to the questions, then told someone in the crowd to stand up, and
talk if they had a question.
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
41
PAGE 41
Discussion. There was a citizen in the crowd asking questions (tape not clear)
A citizen as what was the absorption rate of leachate into the earth,and now fast
it absorbed into the earth, if it left the safe area where it was supposed to be
contained.
Mr. Fletcher responded it depended on what part of the soils it went through. In
this part of the country it goes through shells, and they were doing a test right now
to determine how fast water would move through that shell. He stated that it would
take about 30 years.
A citizen asked what is a monitoring well.
Mr. Fletcher indicated the groundwork monitoring well, would be a well that was
typeically placed in the first water that was found below the surface ground, and it
would test to see if any changes in the water happen before the landfill, or after the
landfill is put in place. They go in and test, then after the landfill it is monitored to
make sure there are no changes.
Citizen then asked are monitoring wells all ready in place on the property.
The city had no monitoring wells, but they had installed some monitors. With the
monitoring system they are looking for water quality on this route, where the level
of water is with the water flow, and what speed the water flows.
Citizen asked if they had any monitoring wells that could tell them if there were any
kind of contaminates in the natural ground water that went to the Bolivar Water
Supply.
Mr. Fletcher indicated they did not right now, but during their investigation it was
part of the process, and they would be determg that.
How many monitoring wells are projected to be around the proposed facility.
Mr. Fletcher indicated there would probably be one about every 600', but possibly
closer. He indicated it would depend on how constant the soil norm, and the frame
of the landfill, and that in terms of that it would probably be over a mile.
Citizen Question: Is there an average depth to the monitoring wells or does it vary.
Mr. Fletcher indicated it would depend on their final research, and that it might
vary. It will vary at the groundwork for sure.
Citizen Question: addressed to Mr. Flood, he stated that he (Mr. Flood) had been
in the waste business for 37 years, and commended Mr. Flood. and he probably had
to put up with this a lot. He realized Mr. Flood had been on the inside of the
business, and asked what was the worst situation he had seen with a Type 1 landfill
like the one they had been discussing.
Mr. Flood indicated he had not seen a negative situation with a Subtitle D site. He
stated that Subtitle D had come into affect 1993, and since then he had not seen, nor
had heard of a negative situation tOw C ere had been any contamination or any
type of pollution. Prior to Subtitle D he had seen a situation where there was
morsomenthane which was a gas that had not been properly handled, it would read
the exact footing of the perimeter of the site, and tend to be taking harder through
the moving site zone. It was before Subtitle D and since Subtitle D the regulations
that are required by Subtitle D he did not know nor had he heard of any incident
42
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98 PAGE 42
whatsoever of polluting or groundwater contamination.
Citizen asked what was the result of the methane leaking at the other landfill.
Mr. Flood indicated what had happened was there were some wells put in there with
a negative air pressure generated and basically the methane was then sucked up into
the pipes and flared off.
Citizen then asked if there would be methane at a Subtitle D site.
Mr. Flood stated that the preparation was made in the design.
He asked if there would be methane gas at the entry.
Discussion on impact of landfill at the lake.
Ms. Tyrone read the next question, "has anyone done a study to look at the long
term, short term of generating revenue as of yet?" She stated that she assumed this
to be addressed to City Council. She asked the City Council if the study had been
done.
Mayor Coker asked City Administrator Jack Smith if he would answer.
Mr. Smith indicated that he did not, and it was because, as he had told them before,
if they listen to the facts. Mr. Flood had indicated there would be 60 to 80 golf
course homes there that may be $250,000 houses, or they might not come in at all,
but that they might.
Ms. Tyrone read the next question, "The Council is unwilling to work with the parks
people for renovation and a grant for a park, how can it be that they can be more
willing to work for a landfill for a golf course?"
Mayor Coker indicated that the Council was willing to work with parks board, the
Council just can not govern the sales tax revenue that they had voted on and how
that money could be spent. He said that it took a board, an industrial board to
make that decision, then indicated that instead of industrial he meant corporation
board. The corporation board makes the decision on how the money is spent. He
said that everyone wanted the money, that everybody wanted to do this, and do that,
he said that they like to screech "we want all this stuff too," he then stated that
there has got to be money in order to pay for it, and said that if they do not have
the money, that they are unable to do things.
Ms. Tyrone read the next question, "why wasn't I notified of the zoning changes as
a land owner bordering that tract, landfill potential or park. Someone from crowd
stated that it was landfill.
Mayor Coker indicated that no zoning changes had been made.
Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone read the next question, "I did not grow up here, nor do I know
most of you, but I did just 4 months ago invest my life savings in a small
ranch about I mile from this proposed dump, questions are between I-35,
and Ray Roberts. Would anyone like to buy my house today for at least
what I paid for it?, if not, your reason?"
Discussion.
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
43
IZIe��CE7
Ms. Tyrone continued to read questions from the same person, "Five years from
now, would you IESI, president, like to buy a top thoroughbred from me for
$10,000, it was raised and drank from my pond." Ms Tyrone asked Mr. Flood if he
would take her thoroughbred for $10,000.
Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone continued, "I have sold golf course homes and condos in Brownstone,
MO, in the best of conditions. Your budget for the golf course will be busted in less
than a year, and you will have to give away the real estate to camouflage the dump,
and IESI will not get the golf course."
Ms. Tyrone continued with #4 "$500,000 is small payment in today's society. Sanger
maybe small, but it's growing, that is ,were growing, with family, support and
community.
Ms Tyrone read the next question, "has an environmental study been conducted?"
Fletcher indicated it was part of what they were doing now with all the drilling and
testing in many places.
Ms. Tyrone read the next question, "has a star war pollution plan been established?"
Fletcher indicated it had not, but it would be established as part of the 16 different
attachments that had to be on the application.
Ms Tyrone read the next question, "Eastside, Ran Tucker, R North East to Ray
Roberts, how much tax evasion and free trade could a company bring to the landfill
area."
Mayor Coker stated that there had been no tax evasion and that there had been no
tax breaks given.
Ms. Tyrone read the next question, "since I live directly North of the proposed
landfill, I have 1 child, 5 horses and cattle. We had a birthday party tonight right
across the street from that land, for our nephew, we were all outside as time rolled
near, and the wind was blowing directly from the South, Do you think we could
have been outside if the landfill was there? I just made my last house payment in
May, and if this landfill goes in, I'm going to have to abandon my house and move
elsewhere. I will not be able to sell my land, unless Mickey wants it. Do you want
it?"
Mr. Flood stated that he did not know where the land was.
Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone read the next question, "Does anyone here know the depth of the
Bolivar Water well that is only 1200' from the site, as to the depth of the proposed
landfill?"
Fletcher indicated the records that Bolivar Water Supply gave to him show the well
water is 900' below where the water is drawn.
Ms. Tyrone read the next question, "Are you going to put trash over the existing
landfill?"
Mr. Flood indicated that they would not, he indicated that the plan was to put a
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
Subtitle D time site, and that was what permit would request including moving the
existing site over onto a double lime site.
Ms. Tyrone read the next question, "Is there any way that we can make it so that
no variances can be allowed once the initial contract is signed, making it comfortable
for Mickey."
Ms. Tyrone responded TNRCC wouldn't have any say in the contract between IESI
and the city, she stated that they would just have a say over the permit application
itself.
Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone asked someone trying to speak to please come to the microphone.
Citizen asked what would happen if IESI was in violation of what TNRCC indicated.
TNRCC employee responded if they discovered something that was placed in the
landfill that should not have been there, he said it would be a violation they would
have to correct. They would have bonds, and cash up at the state, Bank's Insurance,
so for any reason if they go into violation or go out of business, there will be enough
money put up, that the state would control, so the landfill could be closed properly,
and any problems could be taken care of. He said that before the permit gets issued
that they had to provide financial assurance in the form of an irrevocable letter of
credit or cash.
Ms. Tyrone indicated that it would have to put in a federal account, and that it
could not be touched by anyone, and they are required by law, depending on the
type or classification of the landfill, they had to tell them, because they were
required to monitor so many times a year, she indicated they had to tell that they
were in violation, because they had a reputation too, and in doing so they must go
about issuing what they call a remediation plan letting us know how they plan to
clean it up. It must all be approved in steps and what you have she indicated was
a lot of red tape, and it was stranded or approved and that nobody was being
released on their own recognances, they still had to pay the piper, and depending
on how much contamination there was, and how soon they went about it they had
the potential of being fined somewhere today for altering it up, meeting the
guidelines that are required by the people and herself.
Ms. Tyrone stated that she had more questions, and that it was 11:30, and asked if
they were willing to hear the questions.
The people indicated that they were.
Ms. Tyrone read the next question, "Addressing the legality of post executive
session, the Open Meeting Act provided to me by the office of the Attorney General.
The provision allowing the discussion of properties specifically states that standard
provision does not mean that closed session can be utilized to serve advantage public
knowledge and instruction of such issues under consideration."
Ms. Tyrone assumed they did not want an answer, but were making a comment.
Ms. Tyrone read the next question, "Mr. Mayor, you are our Mayor, not IESI's,
do you think you were right to help them and encourage them to get good prices on
their land.
Mayor Coker indicated that he agreed as the City of Sanger's Mayor that he was
not IESI's Mayor. As far as helping them to get good prices they negotiated with
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
45
PAGE 45
them so IESI could help Sanger at the same time. At the time the decisions were
made he thought they had made good decisions. They had been asked how much
money, they were driving out, then stated that this could be $500,000 a year in cash
money that the city could be receiving. They were getting ready, more than likely,
to deregulate electricity and move $500,000 a year from the electrical fund into the
general fund each year. If the electricity is deregulated, and he was not saying it
would or wouldn't, but he thought it probably would, that they could lose the
$500,000 in revenues, and they were looking at ways to keep money coming in to try
to keep Sanger where they could help the citizens with things like ball parks, and
whatever, and this is what the Council was trying to do. They had looked at this,
thought it was best, and made their decision, but that tonight they had rescinded
that decision.
Ms. Tyrone read the next question, "Mr. Flood looking down the road can you
honestly tell me our property values will not be affected by the landfill?"
Mr. Flood said that as he had stated before that he did not believe that values would go down. the property
Ms. Tyrone read the next question. "If the committee says no landfill will IESI sue
the City?"
IESI indicated it was too premature to make the call.
Ms. Tyrone continued to read questions that already been asked.
Discussion.
Ms. Tyrone read the next question, stating that it was the last question, "when will
public meeting/hearing be held?"
Ms. Tyrone said that she wanted to say one thing. She said that when they requested
a public meeting or public hearing or both , that they should also request where and
when that public hearing or meeting would be held. She stated that the reason was
that they would have it where ever was the least expensive for them, and stated that
it was least expensive for them in Austin, TX. She said there was another thing she
needed to tell them about, that with the budget cuts out for legislature this year, that
someone had told her that state employee's were getting much to high on cost, so
they decided that all the travel expenses needed to be cut. She brought other people
with her and she did not get all the people that she needed to this meeting. She
indicated she needed an attorney, and also someone from the Public Interest Council
that could answer questions in terms of legality and more. She could not get those
people here, then the person that had come was her last out, and he was a very
qualified person, and that she brought the best she could bring to give them the
most for their money. They had been cut by a great amount of money, and most
of the programs were out of travel range. The budget cuts were until August 31st.
They have no travel money and they were passing the cup around in the agency to
get people to go to public meetings so they could try to show the public they were
interested in what the people had to say, and they did want to answer their
questions.
Ms. Tyrone continued to express the budget costs they have experienced. She
stateA that sometimes it got a little hard for State employee's to come to them and
give the people what they want and what they need. They were trying to the end
of August to do that. She indicated that as far as the proposed permit is concerned
that IESI had yet to send in an application to say they want to do this, like this, this
way, right here, this month, that high, this long, this deep , and that they're going
CITY COUNCIL-06/02/98
to do this, and going to no that. There was a proposal at the back of what they
would like to do, and stated that it was not in cement. They had an idea by what
had been implied, but they did not know the whole idea. She indicated IESI had
told them that they were not sure of all they would like to do. She told them they
needed to be aware of through the City Council was not to beat them up as bad as
they would like to, she said that the people needed to listen to the Council, and feel
what they are saying. She told them that when they elect them as their
representatives, that they are not always going to say the things they want to hear.
Their mother and father had not said all the things they wanted to hear, but they
were still their mother and father. It was still their City Council and that they still
needed to vote for them. They did what they could do. They had heard from their
neighbors, and friends and suggested they sit down quietly and decide on what it
was they really wanted to do. The people did not want the landfill in Sanger,
period. They needed to sit down and talk to themselves, she said not to lie, and to
be sure what it was they did want, and why. They could call (TNRCC) any time to
find out information. She told them to use the 1-800 number. She said that the
number cost a lot of money, and there are calls from all over everyday. She told
them not to be different, but to utilize the state and can and ask questions. She said
that she appreciated them being as good as they had been, and thanked them for
allowing her to be there.
Roy Chigger- Mr. Chigger stated that he had moved to the city 32 years ago. He
said that he had raised 3 children, who went to school here, and that he liked
Sanger. He said that he had a question. He said that he had been a general
contractor for 15 years, he said that he had built a million things, and even
machinery. He asked Mr. Flood if he could stand up and tell the subject right there
that no matter how much money he put up with the state, could he prove to them
or the state that the landfill would not go down. He stated that he had worked in
landfills when he was 15 and 16 years old, and that he had been in and out of them
for 50 years. He said that he did not know, if when Council went to see the landfills,
if they got out of their cars, if they could smelled the stench, if they had the flies on
them, and if the mosquitoes bit them. He said that it all had happened to him, and
that it was real. He stated that there were a lot of people who had never been in
one, and that he didn't care how big it was, that they did not know the first thing.
He said that the picture at the back was a golf course with houses around it. He
told Mr. Flood that he had said he was going to build a house on that land and live
there on it 24 hours a day. He asked Mr. Flood how many years he would live there.
Mr. Flood said until he retired.
Mr. Chigger repeated his answer, "until you retire," then said "God bless you, sir,
you're gonna need it." He said that he had one thing to say, and that God was his
maker and the Savior of his soul. He told all of the gentlemen, and also the young
lady that they had better get on their knees with God, and ask him what was right.
He said that they were going to get out of there with nothing, no flower clubs, no
green money. He said that he had never seen an armored car in the funeral
procession. He said that he did not want it (the landfill), and that he would be the
first one to give his dollar to see it not happen. He said that he had an apartment
in Montague, that he may have a mind to go to one day, but that he sure didn't
want to end up there. He said that he had a stream he could drink out of, and that
the water was more pure than most in Denton have coming out of there faucets. He
stated that if we put the landfill here that it could leak, and stated that it does
happen, that it has happened all over, and that the lady could probably tell them so.
He said that maybe it was a better system than what he had worked in, no doubt,
but that it still could happen. He said that they needed to all think about the
situation, and like the lady said, put there heads together and that maybe the
CITY COUNCIL -Uol 12/98
47
PAGE 47
community could all move forward. He said "Bless you and Thank you."
(8)11. Any other such matters
Mayor Coker asked if the Council had anything to say. He thanked the TNRCC for
their generosity in being there and the City Attorney for being there. He thanked
the people, and said that he appreciated their statements and comments. He stated
that the Council was trying to work for them, and that they were doing, at the time,
what they felt was best. He said that anytime they felt like they wanted to speak to
any of the Council they could get on the Council Agenda. He said that they could
not just get up in Council, and start making statements, and asking questions, he
said if they wanted to talk to them individually, that they all had telephones, and
that the people knew how to reach them. He said that all they had to do was
contact them, he thanked them for coming.
(9)12. Meeting Adjourned
W. Coker HI, Mayor